I'm one of the guys who just doesn't get it.

[MrBogosity]

I don't know how many of you have been following the Rebecca Watson/sexism in atheist circles kerfuffle. I have, but I haven't weighed in (other than to call someone out on what was more of a pedant point) because a) I don't feel in any way knowledgeable or perceptive enough to do so, and b) because both sides seem to be talking past each other and not listening.

But there is something now I feel I have to speak out on, and this is a peeve of mine. First, let me just link to this blog post from Phil Plait. If you need background information on this, the links from there should fill you in (but a warning for the uninitiated: you're going down the rabbit hole here).

Okay, so Rebecca was propositioned in an elevator--for a cup of coffee. She said no, and that was the end of it. Well, except for all the drama. I'll be the first to say that the guy was tactless and inconsiderate, but for the life of me I can't see this as anything other than a faux pas. And I'm completely baffled by a lot of the claims about this. Phil summarized what they say very nicely:

The real problem here is that Dawkins (and several others who left comments) didn’t see this as a potential assault scenario.

And later:

Put even more simply: this wasn’t a guy chewing gum at her. This was a potential sexual assault.

"Potential sexual assault"? What am I missing here? Is it the case that just simply propositioning someone in an elevator makes it reasonable to believe that the person is a violent criminal? It would seem to me that the assumption that a guy is a criminal solely because he makes such an offer would be far greater sexism than what they're complaining about!

Statistics time:

According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the sexual assault rate in the United States is 77.7 per 100,000. That's high! I've no reason to doubt the figures, so I'll say that this rate is shocking and indicates a serious problem our society needs to address. But is this really the way to do it? To assume that everyone who makes a pass in an elevator is a sexual predator?

What we need to look at is, who is getting raped. According to the same survey, it's mostly women 24 and under, primarily on college campuses. There are also other factors, such as income--low-income women are far more likely to be raped than their high-income counterparts.

So, unless I'm completely wrong about the entire scenario, this was a non-poor woman above college age who wasn't even on a college campus. An assault is far from impossible, but it hardly fits the likeliest of scenarios.

Which means that we need to turn our attention towards--if I may be so bold as to call him, because other people apparently are--the "suspect." Look at the stats again: who are the most likely rapists?

Statistics on this vary, but my cursory research shows a range from around 80-85% as being the chance that the sexual assault is committed by someone the victim knows. Let's consider the following hypothetical scenario:

A woman is accosted in an elevator by a man asking for a date. She turns him down. Upset, she turns to a friend for comfort. If the above statistic is correct, then she is five times more likely to be assaulted by this friend than by the stranger! Shouldn't women know this? Doesn't it then do a disservice to keep treating guys like Elevator Schmuck as a potential rapist, and not the "nice guy" she's known for years? I'll bet you anything that kind of complacency is one reason why most sexual assaults are committed by someone the victim knows!

And that's not to mention the big problem of female-on-male assault, or same-sex assault that is a huge problem in this country, that still goes mostly unreported and unnoticed.

I totally understand Rebecca wanting to raise awareness of this behavior. Although I wasn't there, I can see the argument that the guy was being a jerk. And guys, don't be a jerk! But to call him a potential rapist goes way, way over the line--not only is it far more sexist than the behavior itself, but I think it does a great disservice to women and the cause of ending gender discrimination.

But hey, if I'm wrong, let me know in the comments, because apparently I'm just one more guy who doesn't get it.

[Lord T Hawkeye]

In a recent vid, Qualiasoup pointed out one of the big dangers in blowing actions out of proportion.  He gave the example of if you gave the death penalty for rape, rapists now have nothing to lose and everything to gain by killing their victims.

Same thing can apply here, if you start witch hunting guys for the slightest thing, who knows?  Might get similar results.  Though he could be wrong since most criminals operate under the assumption that they won't get caught.


This is what happens where you concern yourself more with punishing the guilty than protecting the innocent.


Stefan talked about feminism in a series of podcasts and made a very nice point to women who say "men are bad/perverts/blahblahblah".  He pointed out that all these men they badmouth...they were all raised by women.  Sorry ladies, you can't condemn the other sex as though yours had nothing to do with it.

[VectorM]

She turned it into a useful lesson for men on how not to treat women.

So we shouldn't directly tell a woman that we are attracted to her? Does he expect us to be the ultra nice guy before we even imply that we MIGHT be attracted to a woman? Because that shit just doesn't work.

[MrBogosity]

I think the big points of it was 1) she had just said in her talk not to do that (and the guy was in the audience), and 2) it was in an elevator with no "escape route."

[VectorM]

I think the big points of it was 1) she had just said in her talk not to do that (and the guy was in the audience

Well then it does make that elevator guy a REALLY big jerk, but i am still baffled at this view - that i am doing something bad if I ask a girl to some fun times at my room.

[MrBogosity]

Well then it does make that elevator guy a REALLY big jerk, but i am still baffled at this view - that i am doing something bad if I ask a girl to some fun times at my room.

He's a jerk, he's inconsiderate, keep going and I'll agree with every single one...until you get to "potentially violent criminal." That's where you cross a REALLY big line that you'd BETTER have evidence to back it up.

[FSBlueApocalypse]

I understand she was put in an uncomfortable situation, but we've all had to be put in uncomfortable situations before. I'm sure she's not the first woman who's had some creep ask her out for coffee. To call that any kind of sexual assault is an insult to women who have been sexually assaulted.

[AnCap Dave]

I understand she was put in an uncomfortable situation, but we've all had to be put in uncomfortable situations before. I'm sure she's not the first woman who's had some creep ask her out for coffee. To call that any kind of sexual assault is an insult to women who have been sexually assaulted.

Not only that, but it simply encourages further false claims of sexual assault, and by that I mean ones that are far more harmful.