More WWII arguments:

[Lord T Hawkeye]

Even if we buy their "Japan attacked Pearl Harbor unprovoked" claim, all that means is the US destroyed two cities and killed millions solely to preserve their egos which is still psychotic beyond belief...

[Travis Retriever]

Even if we buy their "Japan attacked Pearl Harbor unprovoked" claim, all that means is the US destroyed two cities and killed millions solely to preserve their egos which is still psychotic beyond belief...

EDIT:  NVM, it just occured to me that that was the subject that started this thread.  Hawkeye, maybe you should quote the bit your replying to, next time?

[Travis Retriever]

Also, wasn't expecting a reply from you on this subject.  Very pleasant surprise.

[MrBogosity]

didn't we go into WWII officially AFTER Hitler committed suicide?

Um, no, where did you get that idea?

[Travis Retriever]

When I said I don't know much about the history, I wasn't kidding.

I just thought it could have been the case, given that our gov't didn't 'officially' enter that war until the bombing of Pearl Harbor ('officially' in quotes given that GovCo was still providing weapons and shit to the allies, and hell, probably more than that, doing blockades of Japan, etc).

Really, fucked if I know.

Again, I was just pondering and trying to refute that quote: 

ShaneSaw83:  "Are you serious? Your view of Nazi Germany is so mind-bogglingly stupid, I'm stunned. Hitler only lost because tiny little Germany was fighting us, England and Russia simultaneously. And they were such a devastatingly adept military, that they killed 3 men for every 2 they lost. Hitler wouldn't have stopped; you'd be speaking German right now. Actually, I think you're brown-skinned--so you wouldn't even exist if not for the brave men that died fighting--you foolish, ungrateful SOB."

[Travis Retriever]

When I said I don't know much about the history, I wasn't kidding.

I just thought it could have been the case, given that our gov't didn't 'officially' enter that war until the bombing of Pearl Harbor ('officially' in quotes given that GovCo was still providing weapons and shit to the allies, and hell, probably more than that, doing blockades of Japan, etc).

Really, fucked if I know.

Again, I was just pondering and trying to refute that quote: 

ShaneSaw83:  "Are you serious? Your view of Nazi Germany is so mind-bogglingly stupid, I'm stunned. Hitler only lost because tiny little Germany was fighting us, England and Russia simultaneously. And they were such a devastatingly adept military, that they killed 3 men for every 2 they lost. Hitler wouldn't have stopped; you'd be speaking German right now. Actually, I think you're brown-skinned--so you wouldn't even exist if not for the brave men that died fighting--you foolish, ungrateful SOB."

I have been vindicated:  http://www.cracked.com/article_18389_the-5-most-widely-believed-wwii-facts-that-are-bullshit.html
Thanks cracked.com!

[Ibrahim90]

Which now that I think about it, is pretty absurd...didn't we go into WWII officially AFTER Hitler committed suicide?

no, we had a formal declaration and everything in December 1941. But...the actual peace treaty with Germany wasn't signed until 1990, with the reunification of Germany: VE day is simply the day the German armed forces surrendered, and fighting officially ceased.

Japan's peace treaty was in 1951. again, VJ day and the 2nd of September were just to surrender the armed forces, ending the fighting.

ShaneSaw83:  "Are you serious? Your view of Nazi Germany is so mind-bogglingly stupid, I'm stunned. Hitler only lost because tiny little Germany was fighting us, England and Russia simultaneously. And they were such a devastatingly adept military, that they killed 3 men for every 2 they lost. Hitler wouldn't have stopped; you'd be speaking German right now. Actually, I think you're brown-skinned--so you wouldn't even exist if not for the brave men that died fighting--you foolish, ungrateful SOB."

as to Hitler's defeat: hell yeah it was his fault! every single serious mistake was by him, or his fellow NSDAP goons: the halt at Dunkirk, the battle of Britain, the lack of initiative in just invading Britain, the invasion of the soviet Union, the inability to take Moscow before winter set in (which was totally feasible btw), the confused command structure in France in 1944. Every or nearly every major mistake on the German side was his or his party member' fault--the latter btw having been appointed by Hitler, or ordered by him.

The only reason the Germans had the kill ratio, or even the initial success, was either because their enemy was not prepared (Poland), was too timid (the western allies in 1940)*, or had a paranoid Georgian gut their officer corps (the USSR). that and a good doctrine--which was before Hitler's rise. so their achievements were in spite of Hitler, not because of him.

*in fact, the French had invaded the Saar in late '39-early '40. They met next to no real opposition (all the prepared German soldiers--especially tanks--were in Poland), and could possibly have pressed on to Berlin, ending the war before it began.

[Travis Retriever]

no, we had a formal declaration and everything in December 1941. But...the actual peace treaty with Germany wasn't signed until 1990, with the reunification of Germany: VE day is simply the day the German armed forces surrendered, and fighting officially ceased.

Japan's peace treaty was in 1951. again, VJ day and the 2nd of September were just to surrender the armed forces, ending the fighting.

OK, thanks for the clarification.

as to Hitler's defeat: hell yeah it was his fault! every single serious mistake was by him, or his fellow NSDAP goons: the halt at Dunkirk, the battle of Britain, the lack of initiative in just invading Britain, the invasion of the soviet Union, the inability to take Moscow before winter set in (which was totally feasible btw), the confused command structure in France in 1944. Every or nearly every major mistake on the German side was his or his party member' fault--the latter btw having been appointed by Hitler, or ordered by him.

The only reason the Germans had the kill ratio, or even the initial success, was either because their enemy was not prepared (Poland), was too timid (the western allies in 1940)*, or had a paranoid Georgian gut their officer corps (the USSR). that and a good doctrine--which was before Hitler's rise. so their achievements were in spite of Hitler, not because of him.

*in fact, the French had invaded the Saar in late '39-early '40. They met next to no real opposition (all the prepared German soldiers--especially tanks--were in Poland), and could possibly have pressed on to Berlin, ending the war before it began.

To add to that, I also heard from Fringeelements that had the Western side of Europe done what little was needed to prevent Germany from getting to and raiding the resources of the Rhine River area, Nazi Germany wouldn't have been able to build up and the war would have literally been over before it even began.

[Ibrahim90]

To add to that, I also heard from Fringeelements that had the Western side of Europe done what little was needed to prevent Germany from getting to and raiding the resources of the Rhine River area, Nazi Germany wouldn't have been able to build up and the war would have literally been over before it even began.

and he would be right, though the timidity of the Allies got in the way. it didn't help that the occupation of the Rhineland was not meant to be indefinite--IIRC

of course, none of this would have been necessary if Wilson hadn't sold out on the Germans at Versailles.

[Travis Retriever]

and he would be right, though the timidity of the Allies got in the way. it didn't help that the occupation of the Rhineland was not meant to be indefinite--IIRC

of course, none of this would have been necessary if Wilson hadn't sold out on the Germans at Versailles.

Something that wouldn't have even had a chance to happen had the USA's government gotten involved in WWI, which caused the battle to be won decisively for the allies, and was what made the mistake of the Treaty of Versailles possible--which economically annihilated Germany and allowed the Nazis to rise to power.
Had the USA's Federal Government not been involved, peace would have likely happened by spring of 1917, and with a more equitable result between the opposing sides.