Top 10 favorite collectivist arguments

[Gumba Masta]

Well, I don't know your countries black outs but, we did have an incident where a fallen tree in italy severd apowerline near the italy/switzerland border, which caused black and brownouts across italy and switzerland and I think germany, france and austria too. And as far as I gatherd the most any of the involved did was pass the blame from one goverment to another. Of course we still have the same powergrid plus one line that's been patched up with ducttape.

[Lord T Hawkeye]

It's interesting, isn't it? Again, many of them are skeptics (like Thunderf00t), and yet on this issue they resort to anecdotal evidence, which they (rightly) reject from creationists and other peddlers of woo.

I wonder if they even realize it?

I think, like the religious, on some level at least, they suspect it's bogus but they feel they've invested too much into it to back out now.

[VectorM]

It's interesting, isn't it? Again, many of them are skeptics (like Thunderf00t), and yet on this issue they resort to anecdotal evidence, which they (rightly) reject from creationists and other peddlers of woo.

I wonder if they even realize it?

Thunderf00t really is the best example of this buggery. I remember watching him explain in much detail how we don't need guidance from God to have morals. How we naturally evolved that way and what not, yet he twisted it in to a statist argument. How can you spend so much time explaining how we don't need governance from a superior power, yet be a statist at the same time? That's like me explaining how violence is wrong no matter what, yet condoning wife beating.

[valvatica]

I think, like the religious, on some level at least, they suspect it's bogus but they feel they've invested too much into it to back out now.

I'm sure this is at the core of their ideologies. They treat their thoughts like possessions and can't abandon them, even when they know they're shoddily built. That's why I've taken the position I've stated in my first post and have committed myself to reading what I can here on the forums while staying politically undecided. There's too much high-fiving on political issues in the comments sections of prominent YouTubers for my taste. I've had to recuse myself of political stances so many times in the past that it would just be embarrassing to commit myself to another one until I've done hard research.

[MrBogosity]

Just have your Baloney Detection Kit always at the ready, and apply it always and to everything. That'll help you along.

[Travis Retriever]

Just have your Baloney Detection Kit always at the ready, and apply it always and to everything. That'll help you along.

Good advice for everyone, I'd say.

So Lord T Hawkeye, do you think you have enough collectivist arguments to debunk yet?

[Gumba Masta]

You gotta debunk em all!

[Virgil0211]

You know, it's kinda ironic and frustrating at the same time, but my mother is one of the most statist individuals I've ever known. Also happens to be a devout Christian. Keeps telling me that I'll "see the light someday." Also tends to interrupt me when I'm making a point, ignore refutations, dismiss comparisons without cause, deliberately misinterpret analogies, etc.

I guess just about every argument I've heard from my mother in favor of the state would be on the list of most irritating collectivist arguments.

"Without the government, you wouldn't be able to live. You wouldn't be able to drive up to the gas station and fill your car, or go into the store to buy food. Government makes that possible." That was in response to an argument about a law that says you can't own a horse within the city limits of Houston. Don't ask me why she thought it was relevant.

"The places with less government are the worst places to live." When I pointed out some counter-examples, as well as a few others, her only response was to say "HA!" and leave.

"The government needs to ensure a basic level of healthcare, simply because it's necessary." She then went on to say something along the lines of how, because it's a necessity, the providers can take advantage of it. When I pointed out that you don't see that same problem with food, she replied with "The government provides food stamps."

For her birthday, I'm going to give her a logic textbook. =P

[VectorM]

Arguing with statist parents really is just as bad as arguing with religious parents.

A week ago things got pretty heated up when I started arguing with my whole family about this stuff. They kept telling me how I was reading this shit on the Internet, therefor I was being lied. But the people in government, they don't lie at all, right?

What's kinda funny is that my cousin doesn't believe that the Holocaust happened. And when I asked him how does he know that, he said "Read on the Internet and you will see". None of my family members argued with him, they didn't even blink when he said that. But God forbid that I say anything bad about the way we are being ruled, then they jump on me like I am some sort of murderer and tell me how the Internet is full of lies.

They dismissed any evidence I gave them, even making up facts about stuff they have never even heard of. I mentioned how in the middle of the 1800s in the U.S. a businessmen decided to open a private postal service, because he didn't like the idea of a government monopoly (don't remember his name, I am pretty sure some of you would know who he is). The government didn't like that (obviously), so they passed regulations on him and eventually shut him down. And then my relatives dismissed my argument, by claiming that it was another private company that shut him down, even though they had never even heard of this before, ever.

Lysander Spooner.

Thank you!

The guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysander_Spooner

[MrBogosity]

They dismissed any evidence I gave them, even making up facts about stuff they have never even heard of.

Yeah, it's amazing how often I experience that.

Me: What about [fact]?

Them: Never heard of it.

Me: Well, it shows that [explanation].

Them: No, it doesn't, because [something about the fact].

Me: I thought you said you'd never heard of it!

I mentioned how at the end of the 1800s in the U.S. I businessmen decided to open a private postal service, because he didn't like the idea of a government monopoly (don't remember his name, I am pretty sure some of you would know who he is).

Lysander Spooner.

[Travis Retriever]

@Virgil0211 and VectorM:  And people wonder why we call it "The Cult of the Omnipotent State".

[Travis Retriever]

Also, fun fact:  Lysander Spooner was also the founder of the American Individualist Anarchist movement from what I understand.

[Travis Retriever]

There is a bit of that going on, and it's a problem, but on the other hand you have that in any political ideology. Look at how many liberals sell their policies as perfect cure-all panaceas.

&@Gumba:  True, but at least we (the free market folk) have the most evidence for our claims of it solving problems.
Or at least easing problems that being unfree causes.

[Gumba Masta]

Funny, I hear liberals say that all the time too. 

[Travis Retriever]

Funny, I hear liberals say that all the time too.  

What about this argument:  "Capitalism is a failure; just look at the financial crisis!"