I want to do a journal entry detailing and debunking the top 10 collectivist arguments but I'd rather get lots of input from others on the topic. My personal fav...
"People are evil and selfish and can't be trusted to run things themselves"
First of all, are you saying that the only reason you don't steal, rape and murder is because you're afraid of the government punishing you? If you can't imagine someone being good simply for it's own sake, I consider you insane to say the least...
Second, this statement is blatant special pleading. If your answer to my question up there is "no", then you're special pleading for yourself. Not to mention you're also special pleading for the people you want to put into a position of power. It's like saying the best way to keep order in a prison of serial killers is to appoint a serial killer as the warden. Not smart.
"Who will build roads, provide education, provide health care, etc..."
You will
Yeah, I mean that. If you think those are things society needs, you'll find a way to see that they are fulfilled. If you and/or society can't be bothered, then they weren't worthy causes in the first place.
Anyone who thinks only governments can provide those things needs to read more history. People were providing all of those things long LONG before government was doing them so try and keep some perspective.
Quote from: Lord T Hawkeye on January 12, 2010, 12:56:23 PM"People are evil and selfish and can't be trusted to run things themselves"
So, then, the solution is to take some of these evil, selfish people who can't be trusted to run things and have them run everything.
QuoteFirst of all, are you saying that the only reason you don't steal, rape and murder is because you're afraid of the government punishing you? If you can't imagine someone being good simply for it's own sake, I consider you insane to say the least...
Oddly enough, the very same answer many of these people (who are also atheist skeptics; Thunderf00t comes to mind) say to theists.
Quote from: Lord T Hawkeye on January 12, 2010, 12:56:23 PM
I want to do a journal entry detailing and debunking the top 10 collectivist arguments but I'd rather get lots of input from others on the topic. My personal fav...
"People are evil and selfish and can't be trusted to run things themselves"
Or its cousin, "People are too stupid to run things and need planners."
"Guns increase crime rates" would a be classical one.
"Healthcare is a right!", yet I never see them say that food is a right too.
"FDR saved the U.S. from The Great Depression" could be my favorite.
"Without anti-discrimination laws, nobody would hire minorites/women/disabled people/etc" is another good one.
"Without government welfare, the poor would starve to death." and "You don't care about the poor!" are also good ones.
"Without airport security, the war on terror, and our interventionist foreign policy, the terrorists would kill all of us!" I facepalm whenver I see this one...
"Fiat currency may be inherently inflationary, but a gold standard is inherently deflationary! So it's pick your poison." ...and this one.
"The free market is an idealistic crock, just like communism." I get pissed off when I see this one.
Quote from: surhotchaperchlorome on January 12, 2010, 11:49:52 PM
"The free market is an idealistic crock, just like communism." I get pissed off when I see this one.
About that one, I must say that most people I've met and that've talked about the free market have tried to sell it as a miracle cure-all panache in the same way you see the snake oil merchant in Pete's Dragon peddle their wares. Which did'nt really seemed to increase their trustworthyness, in my oppinion.
There is a bit of that going on, and it's a problem, but on the other hand you have that in any political ideology. Look at how many liberals sell their policies as perfect cure-all panaceas.
I always like, government control of distribution will lead to more equal access to resources. Case in point, Venezuela a major oil producing nation, which is now on power and water rationing after The Mambo Chimp, Chavez nationalized the power industries. So in a way, I guess they're right, everyone in Venezuela will soon be equally squalid, just like in Cuba.
Quote from: Gumba Masta on January 13, 2010, 07:14:49 AM
About that one, I must say that most people I've met and that've talked about the free market have tried to sell it as a miracle cure-all panache in the same way you see the snake oil merchant in Pete's Dragon peddle their wares. Which did'nt really seemed to increase their trustworthyness, in my oppinion.
They all have flaws, the difference is that free market works despite all the flaws. All the other systems only work in a fantasy world where nobody ever tries to exploit the system.
Or to put it another way, the advantages of the free market vastly outweigh the problems. That cannot be said of any kind of centralized control.
Or, of all the flawed systems this is the best one?
Another thing I see mentioned often is how government provides electricity and water. And how without it, these things wouldn't be as commonly available as they are now. To which I would always reply like this:
"Is government providing you with Internet? Is it providing you with cars? With food? Damn, those things really are scares when I think about it. NOT!"
I guess this would be the same as the roads and schools thing, but still.
It's interesting, isn't it? Again, many of them are skeptics (like Thunderf00t), and yet on this issue they resort to anecdotal evidence, which they (rightly) reject from creationists and other peddlers of woo.
I wonder if they even realize it?
Is that why many roads and power grids are in such a horrendeusly rotten state?
Exactly.
Remember the recent blackouts? Where a problem at ONE plant takes out almost the entire northeast power grid? Do you REALLY think a free market would have EVER made a system as horrible as that?
Well, I don't know your countries black outs but, we did have an incident where a fallen tree in italy severd apowerline near the italy/switzerland border, which caused black and brownouts across italy and switzerland and I think germany, france and austria too. And as far as I gatherd the most any of the involved did was pass the blame from one goverment to another. Of course we still have the same powergrid plus one line that's been patched up with ducttape.
Quote from: MrBogosity on January 13, 2010, 12:34:14 PM
It's interesting, isn't it? Again, many of them are skeptics (like Thunderf00t), and yet on this issue they resort to anecdotal evidence, which they (rightly) reject from creationists and other peddlers of woo.
I wonder if they even realize it?
I think, like the religious, on some level at least, they suspect it's bogus but they feel they've invested too much into it to back out now.
Quote from: MrBogosity on January 13, 2010, 12:34:14 PM
It's interesting, isn't it? Again, many of them are skeptics (like Thunderf00t), and yet on this issue they resort to anecdotal evidence, which they (rightly) reject from creationists and other peddlers of woo.
I wonder if they even realize it?
Thunderf00t really is the best example of this buggery. I remember watching him explain in much detail how we don't need guidance from God to have morals. How we naturally evolved that way and what not, yet he twisted it in to a statist argument. How can you spend so much time explaining how we don't need governance from a superior power, yet be a statist at the same time? That's like me explaining how violence is wrong no matter what, yet condoning wife beating.
Quote from: Lord T Hawkeye on January 13, 2010, 03:32:10 PM
I think, like the religious, on some level at least, they suspect it's bogus but they feel they've invested too much into it to back out now.
I'm sure this is at the core of their ideologies. They treat their thoughts like possessions and can't abandon them, even when they know they're shoddily built. That's why I've taken the position I've stated in my first post and have committed myself to reading what I can here on the forums while staying politically undecided. There's too much high-fiving on political issues in the comments sections of prominent YouTubers for my taste. I've had to recuse myself of political stances so many times in the past that it would just be embarrassing to commit myself to another one until I've done hard research.
Just have your Baloney Detection Kit always at the ready, and apply it always and to everything. That'll help you along.
Quote from: MrBogosity on January 13, 2010, 09:13:30 PM
Just have your Baloney Detection Kit always at the ready, and apply it always and to everything. That'll help you along.
Good advice for everyone, I'd say. :)
So Lord T Hawkeye, do you think you have enough collectivist arguments to debunk yet?
You gotta debunk em all!
You know, it's kinda ironic and frustrating at the same time, but my mother is one of the most statist individuals I've ever known. Also happens to be a devout Christian. Keeps telling me that I'll "see the light someday." Also tends to interrupt me when I'm making a point, ignore refutations, dismiss comparisons without cause, deliberately misinterpret analogies, etc.
I guess just about every argument I've heard from my mother in favor of the state would be on the list of most irritating collectivist arguments.
"Without the government, you wouldn't be able to live. You wouldn't be able to drive up to the gas station and fill your car, or go into the store to buy food. Government makes that possible." That was in response to an argument about a law that says you can't own a horse within the city limits of Houston. Don't ask me why she thought it was relevant.
"The places with less government are the worst places to live." When I pointed out some counter-examples, as well as a few others, her only response was to say "HA!" and leave.
"The government needs to ensure a basic level of healthcare, simply because it's necessary." She then went on to say something along the lines of how, because it's a necessity, the providers can take advantage of it. When I pointed out that you don't see that same problem with food, she replied with "The government provides food stamps."
For her birthday, I'm going to give her a logic textbook. =P
Arguing with statist parents really is just as bad as arguing with religious parents.
A week ago things got pretty heated up when I started arguing with my whole family about this stuff. They kept telling me how I was reading this shit on the Internet, therefor I was being lied. But the people in government, they don't lie at all, right?
What's kinda funny is that my cousin doesn't believe that the Holocaust happened. And when I asked him how does he know that, he said "Read on the Internet and you will see". None of my family members argued with him, they didn't even blink when he said that. But God forbid that I say anything bad about the way we are being ruled, then they jump on me like I am some sort of murderer and tell me how the Internet is full of lies.
They dismissed any evidence I gave them, even making up facts about stuff they have never even heard of. I mentioned how in the middle of the 1800s in the U.S. a businessmen decided to open a private postal service, because he didn't like the idea of a government monopoly (don't remember his name, I am pretty sure some of you would know who he is). The government didn't like that (obviously), so they passed regulations on him and eventually shut him down. And then my relatives dismissed my argument, by claiming that it was another private company that shut him down, even though they had never even heard of this before, ever.
Quote from: MrBogosity on January 14, 2010, 11:08:49 AM
Lysander Spooner.
Thank you!
The guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysander_Spooner
Quote from: VectorM on January 14, 2010, 10:24:09 AMThey dismissed any evidence I gave them, even making up facts about stuff they have never even heard of.
Yeah, it's amazing how often I experience that.
Me: What about [fact]?
Them: Never heard of it.
Me: Well, it shows that [explanation].
Them: No, it doesn't, because [something about the fact].
Me: I thought you said you'd never heard of it!
QuoteI mentioned how at the end of the 1800s in the U.S. I businessmen decided to open a private postal service, because he didn't like the idea of a government monopoly (don't remember his name, I am pretty sure some of you would know who he is).
Lysander Spooner.
@Virgil0211 and VectorM: And people wonder why we call it "The Cult of the Omnipotent State".
Also, fun fact: Lysander Spooner was also the founder of the American Individualist Anarchist movement from what I understand.
Quote from: MrBogosity on January 13, 2010, 07:59:21 AM
There is a bit of that going on, and it's a problem, but on the other hand you have that in any political ideology. Look at how many liberals sell their policies as perfect cure-all panaceas.
&@Gumba: True, but at least we (the free market folk) have the most evidence for our claims of it solving problems. :P
Or at least easing problems that being unfree causes. :P
Funny, I hear liberals say that all the time too. ::)
Quote from: Gumba Masta on January 14, 2010, 03:03:03 PMFunny, I hear liberals say that all the time too. ::)
:P
What about this argument: "Capitalism is a failure; just look at the financial crisis!"
Well it looks nice but it bites with my new wallpaper...made out of ONE BOLIVAR BILLS!
Okay, so far we got...
"People are evil"
"Who'll build the roads?"
"Guns increase crime rates"
"Healthcare is a right!"
"FDR saved the U.S. from The Great Depression"
"Without anti-discrimination laws, nobody would hire minorites/women/disabled people/etc"
"Without government welfare, the poor would starve to death."
"Without airport security, the war on terror, and our interventionist foreign policy, the terrorists would kill all of us!"
"Fiat currency may be inherently inflation, but a gold standard is inherently deflationary! So it's pick your poison."
"The free market is an idealistic crock, just like communism."
I'll work through these and pick my fav 10.
1. "People are evil [and/or stupid]."
2. "Who'll build the roads?"
3. "Guns increase crime rates."
4. "Healthcare is a right!"
5. "FDR saved the U.S. from The Great Depression."
6. "Without anti-discrimination laws, nobody would hire minorities/women/disabled people/etc."
7. "Without government welfare, the poor would starve to death."
8. "Without airport security, the war on terror and our interventionist foreign policy, the terrorists would kill us all!"
9. "Fiat currency may be inherently inflationary, but a gold standard is inherently deflationary! So it's pick your poison."
10. "The free market is an idealistic crock, just like communism."
Those ARE ten, Lord T Hawkeye. :P
Also, the 9th one should be "inflationary" not "inflation" that was a typo. My bad.
I also proofread them (my own included) and added punctuation on the ones lacking it. :P
As for the idea that people are evil.
This video: [yt]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gmuOW6qGbx4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gmuOW6qGbx4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/yt]
Might be of use to you. :)
This one too: [yt]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/X2dHFaclpv4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/X2dHFaclpv4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/yt]
I'd watch the first video first, and include it in your rebuttal to the first one. :)
Finally got around to doing it. Hope Shane doesn't mind I linked a lot of his vids in it.
http://lordthawkeye.deviantart.com/journal/30065331/#comments
You should turn that in to a YouTube video.
Quote from: Lord T Hawkeye on February 02, 2010, 03:39:00 AM
Finally got around to doing it. Hope Shane doesn't mind I linked a lot of his vids in it.
http://lordthawkeye.deviantart.com/journal/30065331/#comments
Looks like you already have a detractor in the comments of said deviation. Even if
I disagreed with you, I'd find evidence to present. More incredulity with nothing to back it up.
He's being sarcastic.
Quote from: Lord T Hawkeye on February 02, 2010, 01:20:50 PM
He's being sarcastic.
I just read the comment you both were talking about.
It was fucking hilarious.
As for valvatica's reaction. It seems that Poe's Law has stuck again.
Dammit, I've been Poe'd again!
Quote from: valvatica on February 02, 2010, 05:00:22 PM
Dammit, I've been Poe'd again!
Or maybe it's "Poe'nd"?
I'm sorry. I'll hit myself now.
Here's an honorary #11:
"The free market supports no laws or restrictions whatsoever. If you want to kill your mom, in a free market you could do it."
Except we aren't supporting Anomie.
A free market means "in the absence of the initiation of force, fraud and duress".
Funny how they always leave out that extremely important detail.
"Taxation is legitimate"
"Love it or leave it"
"The government cares"
"Democracy is good" When combined with people are evil so we need a government
"Reagan caused the current financial crises through his deregulation"
"You have a duty to help others" when defending the current welfare system
"Capitalism is naturally exploitative"
"You or anyone else is evil and greedy for wanting a profit"
"Without minimum wage and government regulations we would all work for pennies a day in a coalmine without pants on" Somthing along these lines.
"We would all be uneducated idiots without 12 years of manditory public education"
"People are stupid and need to be told what to do with thier money" (always stops at a certian point for some reason, never taken to its logical outcome of total state control"
Any scentence including the word "We" when refering to a nation.
That everyone who has advocated the free market system was just "Working for themselves"