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The first note of the star wars theme I was like "Take my money, you know the drill!"
Also love the design of that lightsaber.
Well, it certainly looks like a trailer for a J. J. Abrams Star Wars movie should look like.
It does make me wonder what Paramount is doing about him being busy, though.
Well I am confidant that Abrams at least wont **** it up like Lucas did. He made Star Trek look good and that series is basically a bunch of fascists meddling in other peoples business and being the galaxy's police.
Quote from: ArtemisVale on November 28, 2014, 11:29:18 AM
Well I am confidant that Abrams at least wont **** it up like Lucas did. He made Star Trek look good and that series is basically a bunch of fascists meddling in other peoples business and being the galaxy's police.
Despite the Prime Directive which states they can't meddle in the internal affairs of non-member worlds.
Quote from: MrBogosity on November 28, 2014, 11:49:00 AM
Despite the Prime Directive which states they can't meddle in the internal affairs of non-member worlds.
Since when does the law matter to them?
Quote from: ArtemisVale on November 28, 2014, 12:43:40 PM
Since when does the law matter to them?
I think it helps to remember when watching
Star Trek that you're looking at what's being done by a military vessel.
Quote from: ArtemisVale on November 28, 2014, 11:11:36 AM
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The first note of the star wars theme I was like "Take my money, you know the drill!"
Also love the design of that lightsaber.
Would be awesome if they actually used some longsword techniques.
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Quote from: R.E.H.W.R. on November 28, 2014, 10:52:11 PM
Would be awesome if they actually used some longsword techniques.
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Well, the trailer shows a (Sith, unless they've changed the color scheme) lightsabre with a crossguard.
But I hope they won't have feints in lightsabre combat. As I see it, there are basically two kinds of foes for anyone using a lightsabre: Ones without force abilities, against whom feints are not needed, and those with force abilities, against whom feints will not work.
Quote from: evensgrey on November 29, 2014, 09:56:39 AM
Well, the trailer shows a (Sith, unless they've changed the color scheme) lightsabre with a crossguard.
But I hope they won't have feints in lightsabre combat. As I see it, there are basically two kinds of foes for anyone using a lightsabre: Ones without force abilities, against whom feints are not needed, and those with force abilities, against whom feints will not work.
Why wouldn't a feint work on a force user?
Quote from: R.E.H.W.R. on November 29, 2014, 03:50:34 PM
Why wouldn't a feint work on a force user?
They can anticipate where a blow is going to strike. That's how Luke can deflect laser fire blindfolded, without having to see the bolts or move his arms faster than light.
Quote from: MrBogosity on November 29, 2014, 06:02:31 PM
They can anticipate where a blow is going to strike. That's how Luke can deflect laser fire blindfolded, without having to see the bolts or move his arms faster than light.
Sounds like it would canceled out by another force user.
and some EU cannon says otherwise.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Bane%27s_lightsaber
Nothing I have seen from my research on force user lightsaber combat supports this.
Quote from: R.E.H.W.R. on November 30, 2014, 12:01:26 AM
Sounds like it would canceled out by another force user.
and some EU cannon says otherwise.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Bane%27s_lightsaber
Nothing I have seen from my research on force user lightsaber combat supports this.
Then it's yet another inconsistency, as many fights in the movies make no sense this way.
Quote from: MrBogosity on November 30, 2014, 06:22:58 AM
Quote from: R.E.H.W.R. on November 30, 2014, 12:01:26 AM
Sounds like it would canceled out by another force user.
and some EU cannon says otherwise.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Bane%27s_lightsaber
Nothing I have seen from my research on force user lightsaber combat supports this.
Then it's yet another inconsistency, as many fights in the movies make no sense this way.
The article itself is based on contradictory sources, and mentions the use of feints in only a single fight.
In any case, it is irrelevant to the movies.
I really can't see how you can have feints in a fighting technique used by people who are specifically able to predict the actions of their opponent in a fight. (If they can't, then how would Darth Vader have been able to block Han's blaster shot? And there are direct mentions that Force users can react to events before they happen, giving them a dominating edge over a non-user in almost any fight.)
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Its preety much what ive been thinking except I dont see why having the cortosis and the blades on the gaurd wouldnt be an even better solution so that youd still have a super lethal gaurd.
Quote from: ArtemisVale on November 30, 2014, 06:38:09 PM
Its preety much what ive been thinking except I dont see why having the cortosis and the blades on the gaurd wouldnt be an even better solution so that youd still have a super lethal gaurd.
Isn't the guard about as much about protecting your own arm from the blade? So if you aren't careful with that thing you could slice your own hand off!
Quote from: MrBogosity on November 30, 2014, 06:41:49 PM
Isn't the guard about as much about protecting your own arm from the blade? So if you aren't careful with that thing you could slice your own hand off!
True but that's an issue with any lightsaber blade. You would need a lot of training to be able to not hurt yourself so the gaurd blades wouldn't be any different.
Quote from: evensgrey on November 30, 2014, 07:21:10 AM
I really can't see how you can have feints in a fighting technique used by people who are specifically able to predict the actions of their opponent in a fight.
That's supposing that they can always do it all the time.
Quote(If they can't, then how would Darth Vader have been able to block Han's blaster shot? And there are direct mentions that Force users can react to events before they happen, giving them a dominating edge over a non-user in almost any fight.)
No said that they can't.
Then, how did Grevious take out so many Jedi while having no use of the Force?
Quote from: ArtemisVale on November 30, 2014, 09:38:30 PM
True but that's an issue with any lightsaber blade. You would need a lot of training to be able to not hurt yourself so the gaurd blades wouldn't be any different.
Messing with my longsword, its unlikely to cut your arms with it. Unless you are being a complete idiot. My arms never came into with the cross guard. Your chest is a different matter entirely.
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Quote from: ArtemisVale on November 30, 2014, 09:38:30 PM
True but that's an issue with any lightsaber blade. You would need a lot of training to be able to not hurt yourself so the gaurd blades wouldn't be any different.
Not really, because in this case just holding the lightsaber at 90 degrees puts you REALLY close to the hilt! At best, it would severely limit the moves you could make with it.
Quote from: MrBogosity on November 30, 2014, 06:41:49 PM
Isn't the guard about as much about protecting your own arm from the blade? So if you aren't careful with that thing you could slice your own hand off!
At least one pencil-and-paper Star Wars RPG had a mechanic to specifically reflect this problem with lightsabres.
The long out of print game from West End Games used 6-sided dice, and in each roll one had to be different, and was called the 'wild die'. Rolling a 1 on the wild die meant something really bad happened. With a lightsabre in the hand of a character who didn't know how to use it, this could mean lopping of one of your own limbs. Or your head. (It was pretty much there as a game balance thing, otherwise lightsabres would be much too powerful.in the hands of non-Force Users.)
Quote from: evensgrey on December 01, 2014, 08:48:36 AM
At least one pencil-and-paper Star Wars RPG had a mechanic to specifically reflect this problem with lightsabres.
The long out of print game from West End Games used 6-sided dice, and in each roll one had to be different, and was called the 'wild die'. Rolling a 1 on the wild die meant something really bad happened. With a lightsabre in the hand of a character who didn't know how to use it, this could mean lopping of one of your own limbs. Or your head. (It was pretty much there as a game balance thing, otherwise lightsabres would be much too powerful.in the hands of non-Force Users.)
Ooooh we should have a star wars game : D Although if we can I'd rather use the AIR system since its more cinematic and easier for people to learn.
As Skallagrim pointed out, lightsaber resistant materials do exist in the Star Wars universe so really, why not just make a guard out of those? Problem solved.
On a semi-related note, it's easy to see why the Jedi don't have Marines...
Quote from: MrBogosity on December 01, 2014, 06:20:40 AM
Not really, because in this case just holding the lightsaber at 90 degrees puts you REALLY close to the hilt! At best, it would severely limit the moves you could make with it.
No, it doesn't.
I dare you to find someone who has hurt themselves with a longsword guard.
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Quote from: R.E.H.W.R. on December 01, 2014, 04:40:03 PM
I dare you to find someone who has hurt themselves with a longsword guard.
Longsword guards generally aren't made of superheated plasma capable of immediately severing and cauterizing limbs.
Quote from: MrBogosity on December 01, 2014, 07:25:13 PM
Longsword guards generally aren't made of superheated plasma capable of immediately severing and cauterizing limbs.
What does that have to do with anything?
Unless you are a complete idiot, you are not going to harm your arms with the cross guard.
I have been sparring with longswords for over a year now, I have never hit my arms with my own crossguard.
It just doesn't happen.
the price of admisson is too high they already $#$#$#$# the Expanded Universe so I really can't bring myself to bother with their "New direction"
Quote from: R.E.H.W.R. on November 30, 2014, 10:31:53 PM
Then, how did Grevious take out so many Jedi while having no use of the Force?
It might have had SOMETHING to do with Grievous having four arms, each with a weapon, and most jedi having only one or two weapons. We certainly saw enough jedi gunned down by masses of droid soldiers (which Grievous had under his command) in the previous movie. (He was only taking the lightsabres of jedi he killed in single combat as trophies, but he may have had others from jedi killed by the droids.)
Quote from: evensgrey on December 02, 2014, 02:05:46 PM
It might have had SOMETHING to do with Grievous having four arms, each with a weapon, and most jedi having only one or two weapons. We certainly saw enough jedi gunned down by masses of droid soldiers (which Grievous had under his command) in the previous movie. (He was only taking the lightsabres of jedi he killed in single combat as trophies, but he may have had others from jedi killed by the droids.)
If they can always predict where he is going to strike, it shouldn't matter.
So, its stands to reason that they can't always do it. Which means feints are still a valid tactic.
Quote from: R.E.H.W.R. on December 02, 2014, 02:10:55 PM
If they can always predict where he is going to strike, it shouldn't matter.
So, its stands to reason that they can't always do it. Which means feints are still a valid tactic.
He has up to four simultaneous attacks, the defender has at most two simultaneous defenses (and that's only for the relatively few jedi who bother with two-sabre styles). It doesn't add up to a jedi being able to defeat him by anticipation unless they constantly retreat, and retreat FAST. If any jedi tries to block four strikes at once with no more than two weapons, they're going to get sliced and diced, and they'd deserve it for being stupid.
Unfortunately the first Clone Wars anmated series is no onger canon.
Wouldn't a powerful enough force user be able to make his opponent think he was going to do one thing, and actually do another? You know, like psychic feinting?
Quote from: dallen68 on December 02, 2014, 07:05:03 PM
Wouldn't a powerful enough force user be able to make his opponent think he was going to do one thing, and actually do another? You know, like psychic feinting?
Would that work on another force user?
Quote from: R.E.H.W.R. on December 02, 2014, 07:56:12 PM
Would that work on another force user?
As long as he's not equal or stronger in the force, I don't see why not.
So are we using West End Games materiel as the basis here or is t based on conjecture? If we're using roleplaying materiel wouldn't it make more sense to use the more up to date Fantasy Flight materiel?
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It was handled much better in the comics.
My prediction: before the movie's even released, the fans will have thought this through MUCH more thoroughly than Abrams & Co...
We already have my friend.
This IS the fandom that worked out what the Death Star's main reactor minimum output had to be, after all.
Quote from: evensgrey on December 04, 2014, 02:33:39 PM
This IS the fandom that worked out what the Death Star's main reactor minimum output had to be, after all.
And this was so important to them because? ???
Quote from: Ibrahim90 on December 06, 2014, 08:46:35 PM
And this was so important to them because? ???
After working out how much energy the Death Star's anti-planet weapon had to output (based on the premise that it could permanently destroy an Earth-sized planet in a single shot such that it would not later recoalesce), the next obvious question is how much power does the Death Star have to generate in order to recharge it in the timeframe indicated (a day, more or less). If you don't understand why anyone would care to know that, then you've got no hope of understanding Fandom.
I've seen these calculations used for the (more or less) practical aim of debunking cretinists. (Carl Baugh making a silly claim that the asteroid belt is the result of a microwave pulse Earth released during the imaginary Flood of Noah permanently disrupting a planet between Mars and Jupiter. As it happens, almost all the numbers had already been worked out for this.)
(The answer, incidentally, is that the Death Star puts out about as much energy as the Sun. This has a very interesting consequence on interstellar warfare, as it has always been assumed that a K2 civilization could not be conquered by external force as no mobile facility or collection of mobile facilities could possibly compete with the firepower available to a K2 civilization. If you could build a Death Star, they you would have a mobile base with the firepower of a K2 civilization and full support facilities for the rest of the fleet such an attack would require, all in one. So, essentially, if you want a military invasion of a K2 civilization that doesn't just look silly, you need a Death Star to be possible. Even in Star Wars, they have to cheat to make it work since no plausible energy source can generate enough power and be small enough. A quantum singularity doesn't even work, since you'd have the universe's most dangerous, unstable, and hard to control energy source, and you probably couldn't feed matter into it fast enough to keep it stable at anything like the required output.)
Quote from: evensgrey on December 07, 2014, 03:34:53 AM
(The answer, incidentally, is that the Death Star puts out about as much energy as the Sun. This has a very interesting consequence on interstellar warfare, as it has always been assumed that a K2 civilization could not be conquered by external force as no mobile facility or collection of mobile facilities could possibly compete with the firepower available to a K2 civilization. If you could build a Death Star, they you would have a mobile base with the firepower of a K2 civilization and full support facilities for the rest of the fleet such an attack would require, all in one. So, essentially, if you want a military invasion of a K2 civilization that doesn't just look silly, you need a Death Star to be possible. Even in Star Wars, they have to cheat to make it work since no plausible energy source can generate enough power and be small enough. A quantum singularity doesn't even work, since you'd have the universe's most dangerous, unstable, and hard to control energy source, and you probably couldn't feed matter into it fast enough to keep it stable at anything like the required output.)
Actually, the answer is that Lucas had no idea how much power it would take to actually blow up a planet and did it because he thought it would look cool. And if the Empire really did have the ability to generate that kind of power, the war would have been VERY one-sided!
The planet-killers in Babylon 5 were much more realistic, especially the Shadow planet killer. And notice that only the First Ones could generate enough power to do it. They were basically Type III civilizations; for all we know, their ships were powered by small black holes! (It was also why the younger races had no hope of winning the war by fighting them and had to come up with a more interesting way of doing it. JMS > Lucas, sorry.)
Quote from: MrBogosity on December 07, 2014, 06:30:04 AM
Actually, the answer is that Lucas had no idea how much power it would take to actually blow up a planet and did it because he thought it would look cool. And if the Empire really did have the ability to generate that kind of power, the war would have been VERY one-sided!
It was very one-sided in any case. There were precisely two proper battles in the whole war, one at each Death Star, and only the second was a true fleet action. In both battles, the Rebels took massive losses of the forces used and only won because the outcome of the battle depended on destroying the Death Star in each case. The first one was destroyed because it had a small but critical design flaw, the second because it was far from ready for battle without its external fixed defenses.
The resources committed to building the Death Stars were mostly wasted, of course. If the same resources had gone into building fleets and conventional support facilities, there would have been thousands of additional ships, likely enough to effectively police the galaxy. Superweapons look grand, except they can't do all that much without a cooperative enemy.
Quote from: MrBogosity on December 07, 2014, 06:30:04 AM
The planet-killers in Babylon 5 were much more realistic, especially the Shadow planet killer. And notice that only the First Ones could generate enough power to do it. They were basically Type III civilizations; for all we know, their ships were powered by small black holes! (It was also why the younger races had no hope of winning the war by fighting them and had to come up with a more interesting way of doing it. JMS > Lucas, sorry.)
JMS can actually write, something Lucas has demonstrated he really doesn't know how to do.
Incidentally, according to the only references I've ever found, the Vorlons used something called a 'hyperspace power tap,' presumably drawing power from the difference between normal space and hyperspace. Clearly, the Vorlons used far higher output power systems than the younger races, by a couple orders of magnitude based on the recharge time of the main gun on the Excalibur.
Quote from: evensgrey on December 07, 2014, 07:23:02 AM
It was very one-sided in any case. There were precisely two proper battles in the whole war, one at each Death Star, and only the second was a true fleet action. In both battles, the Rebels took massive losses of the forces used and only won because the outcome of the battle depended on destroying the Death Star in each case. The first one was destroyed because it had a small but critical design flaw, the second because it was far from ready for battle without its external fixed defenses.
But there's not much difference between (say) an X-Wing and a Tie Fighter, and if the Empire had the ability to generate power on that magnitude a single Tie Fighter should be able to take out a squadron of X-Wings!
QuoteJMS can actually write, something Lucas has demonstrated he really doesn't know how to do.
Indeed.
QuoteIncidentally, according to the only references I've ever found, the Vorlons used something called a 'hyperspace power tap,' presumably drawing power from the difference between normal space and hyperspace. Clearly, the Vorlons used far higher output power systems than the younger races, by a couple orders of magnitude based on the recharge time of the main gun on the Excalibur.
It was never explained in the series. I could think it of the Shadows; they basically lived in hyperspace.
Quote from: MrBogosity on December 07, 2014, 07:29:06 AM
But there's not much difference between (say) an X-Wing and a Tie Fighter, and if the Empire had the ability to generate power on that magnitude a single Tie Fighter should be able to take out a squadron of X-Wings!
TIE fighters were consistently shown to be extremely flimsy compared to X-Wings. Any hit would usually take out a TIE fighter, but only a fairly hard shot would take down an X-Wing, which regularly survived the first hit. The only exception was Vader's personal fighter, which appeared to have several non-standard features.
Power generation isn't likely to be strictly proportional to volume, either. Generally speaking, the larger a power source you have, the higher the power density it can generate. There are also maximum and minimum sizes at which most types of power systems are efficient. You'd have a hard time building a gasoline-powered piston engine large enough to power an aircraft carrier, and an even harder time building a fission reactor small enough to power a fighter (the smallest aircraft that carried operational or potentially operations fission reactors were heavy bombers, and even then it simply wasn't viable as a power source to drive the aircraft).
Are yo only countng hte battles n thbe films for "proper battles". In whch case yo're missing a significant ammount of battes from the Rise of the Empire to the truce between the Imperial Remnant and the New Republic. Which s quite a long span of time.
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Quote from: ArtemisVale on December 07, 2014, 03:16:38 PM
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Haven't watched the video yet, but my understanding is that you just need a laser to create a plasma in a confined space. The only part of it we can't make is the force field to hold it in.
Quote from: MrBogosity on December 07, 2014, 04:04:56 PM
Haven't watched the video yet, but my understanding is that you just need a laser to create a plasma in a confined space. The only part of it we can't make is the force field to hold it in.
Id warth the video since Kaku came up with a different idea than using lasers
Quote from: ArtemisVale on December 07, 2014, 04:48:18 PM
Id warth the video since Kaku came up with a different idea than using lasers
Yeah, that was a big "Meh." Reminds me why I stopped watching that show.
If you had a force field regenerating at (say) 60Hz, you could generate the plasma with a laser. It's pretty clear that's what's going on in the movies.
If we had light sabers with Kaku's design, the first thing I'd do is reverse the polarity of my magnets--REPEL the other sword! Ahahahahaha!!!
Quote from: MrBogosity on December 07, 2014, 08:02:18 PM
Yeah, that was a big "Meh." Reminds me why I stopped watching that show.
If you had a force field regenerating at (say) 60Hz, you could generate the plasma with a laser. It's pretty clear that's what's going on in the movies.
If we had light sabers with Kaku's design, the first thing I'd do is reverse the polarity of my magnets--REPEL the other sword! Ahahahahaha!!!
On a somewhat related note, why wouldn't I use the force to float my lightsaber over to where you are and duel you from... say 30 miles away?
Quote from: dallen68 on December 07, 2014, 08:21:40 PM
On a somewhat related note, why wouldn't I use the force to float my lightsaber over to where you are and duel you from... say 30 miles away?
That's one thing that disappointed me about Yoda in Episode I. In his heyday, he should have been able to float several lightsabers to fight dozens of foe without even standing up. I imagined him with his hands in the air conducting an orchestra of floating light sabers in a barrier that no one could get past.
Really, there was no excuse for Episodes I-III not being awesome. And CERTAINLY none for them being the dreck they are.
Quote from: MrBogosity on December 07, 2014, 08:02:18 PM
Yeah, that was a big "Meh." Reminds me why I stopped watching that show.
If you had a force field regenerating at (say) 60Hz, you could generate the plasma with a laser. It's pretty clear that's what's going on in the movies.
If we had light sabers with Kaku's design, the first thing I'd do is reverse the polarity of my magnets--REPEL the other sword! Ahahahahaha!!!
What I would like to see though is a plasma blade with a single edge (you know, like a saber) instead of a big glow stick that you could hit yourself with.
Quote from: ArtemisVale on December 07, 2014, 10:08:08 PM
What I would like to see though is a plasma blade with a single edge (you know, like a saber) instead of a big glow stick that you could hit yourself with.
The hilt/battery chamber (whatever you want to call it) is long enough that you'd actually have to go out of your way to hit yourself with the blade. Which, of course, you could do with anything.
Quote from: dallen68 on December 07, 2014, 11:22:51 PM
The hilt/battery chamber (whatever you want to call it) is long enough that you'd actually have to go out of your way to hit yourself with the blade. Which, of course, you could do with anything.
None of the movies show even the greenest apprentice doing anything as stupid as hitting themselves with their own lightsabre.
(Like I said, West End Games put hitting yourself if you didn't have the skill in mostly for game balance, as lightsabres were really, REALLY powerful in their game. Even a half-trained apprentice could easily shred most ground combat vehicles, and a master could take down attacking starfighters. TIE fighters weren't up to much in that game, though. The way they modeled their relative flimsiness resulted in a max-strength human being able to punch holes in them, and wookies, which are stronger than humans can be, can rip them apart like tinfoil. Even most blaster pistols can damage basic TIE fighters, if they manage to get a hit. In mechanics terms, IIRC, the damage from a lightsabre strike in that game was your Strength, plus your Force Alter skill, plus 3 dice from the lightsabre itself, and your hit was your Dexterity plus your Force Sense skill plus your Lightsabre Combat skill. Defense was normally just Strength plus up to 3 dice of armor, and your ability to doge was just your Dexterity, which were applied against the result of the attacker's rolls in a simple highest wins test. In practice, in usually meant that a lightsabre made anyone who knew how to use it nearly invincible. At least, until you had half-trained apprentices against one High Sith Lord, which I've played through. Or you stupidly get yourself drugged and captured and chained to the wall and deprived of your lightsabre and are left with just taunting the villain about how he's completely failing at being intimidating, which I played through later. Nothing really scares you after you've been toe-to-toe with a High Sith Lord.)