http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/jewish_revenge_squads.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Elderly-Jewish-man-accused-of-postwar-revenge-rampage/2005/01/02/1104601243476.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/jewish-brigade-shot-nazi-prisoners-in-revenge-1191139.html
http://www.sunjournal.com/node/131376
So we have some real inglorious bastard type people here. Did you know that until now cause I didn't.
I'd read anecdotes along those lines before. In the versions I'm familiar with though, they weren't going after "senior Nazi officials", they were grabbing anyone they could get their hands on, who might-have-maybe put on a Nazi uniform at one time or the other.
Quote from: dallen68 on October 18, 2013, 06:10:21 AM
I'd read anecdotes along those lines before. In the versions I'm familiar with though, they weren't going after "senior Nazi officials", they were grabbing anyone they could get their hands on, who might-have-maybe put on a Nazi uniform at one time or the other.
Which is bad, because probably most of the people wearing that uniform did so because they were forced to. The rank-and-file Nazis were probably more like Sergeant Schultz than Colonel Klink.
Quote from: MrBogosity on October 18, 2013, 06:32:04 AM
Which is bad, because probably most of the people wearing that uniform did so because they were forced to. The rank-and-file Nazis were probably more like Sergeant Schultz than Colonel Klink.
You're being unfair to Klink. Recall, he was a career man long before the Nazis were anything at all. The military proper weren't even allowed to be Nazis, as they were forbidden by law to join any political party.
I had heard the story about the plot to poison the former SS officers mentioned in the last article. I heard of it about the same time (and possibly from the same source) as a report of the British government operating a death squad of its own, targeting Nazis who had tortured and/or killed British personnel.
Because as we all know, two wrongs make a right...
Quote from: evensgrey on October 18, 2013, 09:11:00 AM
You're being unfair to Klink. Recall, he was a career man long before the Nazis were anything at all. The military proper weren't even allowed to be Nazis, as they were forbidden by law to join any political party.
True, but he was a willing Nazi bureaucrat, unlike Schultz, who was a liberal-democrat business owner and thwarted the Nazis the only way he could: by being as incompetent as possible and looking the other way while Hogan helped POWs escape.
Quote from: MrBogosity on October 18, 2013, 06:32:04 AM
Which is bad, because probably most of the people wearing that uniform did so because they were forced to. The rank-and-file Nazis were probably more like Sergeant Schultz than Colonel Klink.
I read that the vast majority of the German Military aka. the Wehrmacht did not even know that the holocaust was going on.
There were also people of Jewish ancestry in the Wehrmacht, there were even some full blooded Jews. There were actually a few Jews who actually served in the Waffen SS.
Quote from: evensgrey on October 18, 2013, 09:11:00 AM
You're being unfair to Klink. Recall, he was a career man long before the Nazis were anything at all. The military proper weren't even allowed to be Nazis, as they were forbidden by law to join any political party.
I had heard the story about the plot to poison the former SS officers mentioned in the last article. I heard of it about the same time (and possibly from the same source) as a report of the British government operating a death squad of its own, targeting Nazis who had tortured and/or killed British personnel.
Klink would have had to swear loyalty to Hitler--even if he was no nazi. He would have felt honor bound to serve the nazis--particularly Hitler.
Quote from: Skm1091 on October 18, 2013, 12:28:00 PM
I read that the vast majority of the German Military aka. the Wehrmacht did not even know that the holocaust was going on.
There were also people of Jewish ancestry in the Wehrmacht, there were even some full blooded Jews. There were actually a few Jews who actually served in the Waffen SS.
That's a point that's been debated since the end of the war. Some people maintain that there was no possible way anyone over (what ever age the individual thinks awareness begins) not knew the holocaust was happening. These are the people that push the "national guilt" thing. Others say that the Nazi's took extraordinary measures to prevent the every man from knowing what was happening, and there is some documentation to give weak evidence of this. Yet others claim that how much someone would have known, depended on the assigned job, and the Nazis set up most tasks so those performing them would have no way of knowing the whole picture.
Quote from: Ibrahim90 on October 18, 2013, 04:40:39 PM
Klink would have had to swear loyalty to Hitler--even if he was no nazi. He would have felt honor bound to serve the nazis--particularly Hitler.
I think the only thing Klink was honour bound to was keeping his ass as far away from the frontlines as possible.
Quote from: Ibrahim90 on October 18, 2013, 04:40:39 PM
Klink would have had to swear loyalty to Hitler--even if he was no nazi. He would have felt honor bound to serve the nazis--particularly Hitler.
Actually, both Schultz and Klink would have sworn loyalty to Hitler. The oath of service was changed in the early '30's to that effect. Also, IIRC, according to the plot, it was supposed to be a Luftwaffe camp.
Quote from: dallen68 on October 18, 2013, 06:56:33 PM
Actually, both Schultz and Klink would have sworn loyalty to Hitler. The oath of service was changed in the early '30's to that effect. Also, IIRC, according to the plot, it was supposed to be a Luftwaffe camp.
What are we talking about here exactly
Quote from: Skm1091 on October 18, 2013, 07:52:30 PM
What are we talking about here exactly
Two German characters from the 1960's sitcom "Hogan's Heros". Schultz is a former businessman (owner of the largest toy company in Germany, before it was converted to making firearms), and Klink is a career Luftwaffe officer and pilot, and claimed to have been a member of von Richthofen's "Flying Circus" unit at least once (which would mean he should have known Göring, who was von Richthofen's XO and successor). Both of them should be unusually clever men to have such careers, and yet they are constantly being completely outwitted.
Schultz particularly is obviously aware of at least some of the actions of the POWs, but maintains a facade of ignorance and incompetence to avoid having to do anything about it. Klink can't possibly not notice his chief NCO's incompetence, but doesn't do anything about it. (There's also at least one incident which indicates one of them, or possibly Klink's own commander, is spy for the Allies.)
Quote from: Ibrahim90 on October 18, 2013, 04:40:39 PM
Klink would have had to swear loyalty to Hitler--even if he was no nazi. He would have felt honor bound to serve the nazis--particularly Hitler.
I don't get how you figure that. The oath for many was sworn under duress. Who feels honor bound to follow an oath they were forced to make?
Oskar Schindler swore the same oath. So did Claus von Stauffenberg.
Quote from: Gumba Masta on October 18, 2013, 06:24:12 PM
I think the only thing Klink was honour bound to was keeping his ass as far away from the frontlines as possible.
You, sir, get one of my rare cluons for that!
Quote from: Skm1091 on October 18, 2013, 07:52:30 PM
What are we talking about here exactly
Hogan's Heroes. Great show.
Quote from: MrBogosity on October 18, 2013, 09:56:58 PM
I don't get how you figure that. The oath for many was sworn under duress. Who feels honor bound to follow an oath they were forced to make?
Oskar Schindler swore the same oath. So did Claus von Stauffenberg.
You, sir, get one of my rare cluons for that!
Hogan's Heroes. Great show.
There was also a Major Karl Plagge
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/apr/11/secondworldwar.germany
Quote from: dallen68 on October 18, 2013, 06:11:54 PM
That's a point that's been debated since the end of the war. Some people maintain that there was no possible way anyone over (what ever age the individual thinks awareness begins) not knew the holocaust was happening. These are the people that push the "national guilt" thing. Others say that the Nazi's took extraordinary measures to prevent the every man from knowing what was happening, and there is some documentation to give weak evidence of this. Yet others claim that how much someone would have known, depended on the assigned job, and the Nazis set up most tasks so those performing them would have no way of knowing the whole picture.
The Jews who did serve in the SS were most likely trying to save their skins. Cause you have to admit this is a pretty stupid and at the same time a pretty smart move. It's stupid because they were going into the lions den, but at the same time it was smart because that would very last place they would ever expect to find a Jew.
Quote from: Skm1091 on October 19, 2013, 02:01:43 AM
The Jews who did serve in the SS were most likely trying to save their skins. Cause you have to admit this is a pretty stupid and at the same time a pretty smart move. It's stupid because they were going into the lions den, but at the same time it was smart because that would very last place they would ever expect to find a Jew.
It kind of makes sense, though, if you can pass for a German and you can get someone to forge papers for you...why not? If you have the chance, watch (or read) Europa, Europa.
Also, I have heard anecdotes about African Americans that could pass as whites doing the same thing during the time between the civil war and the civil rights era. (Except, of course, the stakes weren't quite as high... or maybe they were.)
Seen the movie. Good Movie
Quote from: dallen68 on October 19, 2013, 02:12:14 AM
It kind of makes sense, though, if you can pass for a German and you can get someone to forge papers for you...why not? If you have the chance, watch (or read) Europa, Europa.
Also, I have heard anecdotes about African Americans that could pass as whites doing the same thing during the time between the civil war and the civil rights era. (Except, of course, the stakes weren't quite as high... or maybe they were.)
It depends on the circumstances. In some places and at some times, you bet your ass the stakes were just as high. The difference is there wasn't an official state policy of extermination.
More on the subject of jews in the german military.
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Quote from: MrBogosity on October 18, 2013, 09:56:58 PM
I don't get how you figure that. The oath for many was sworn under duress. Who feels honor bound to follow an oath they were forced to make?
Oskar Schindler swore the same oath. So did Claus von Stauffenberg.
who said
I figure that?
He likely does, or at least, that's how he'd justify doing
anything for the war (assuming that he wasn't secretly "disloyal"): otherwise he wouldn't be doing his thing. And in real life most officers were like that--even if they didn't like it and were coerced into it. It didn't help that it was actually the Generals' idea to even have them read the oath--a way of currying favor with Hitler over the SA, and to keep their independence. Such a situation creates people who are willing to ignore the truth, to make them feel better: like people who support Obama. Alternately, they see the truth, and a horrified, but do nothing, for fear over their own careers and lives.
It took people with particularly strong moral convictions to not abide by the oath, or keep silent: people like von Stauffenberg, Schindler, or Heinz Drossel, or that Plagge guy. (or, in Hogan's heroes, Corporal Klink)
There is a series of documentaries I love to recommend on the subject: here's the first part--there are five parts in total (including one on resistance): they go into depth on what made the Officers tick: it's pretty complex, with some doing the right thing for the right reason, others spineless lackeys.
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@ dallen68: you're right, but Schultz is a conscript with a clear motive to screw up things: Klink isn't--quite the opposite, as far as one can tell.
@Gumba Masta: LOL--good one!
Quote from: Ibrahim90 on October 22, 2013, 04:34:28 PMwho said I figure that? He likely does, or at least, that's how he'd justify doing anything for the war (assuming that he wasn't secretly "disloyal")
It might be an after-the-fact justification, but it wouldn't be his motivation as you implied.
Quote from: MrBogosity on October 22, 2013, 04:56:18 PM
It might be an after-the-fact justification, but it wouldn't be his motivation as you implied.
perhaps that may be.