QuoteThe Daily Show With Jon Stewart, October 27, 2011
http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/thu-october-27-2011-andrew-napolitano
What would be your best response to these questions and statements:
1.Is government the antithesis of liberty?
2. One of the things that enhances freedoms are roads. Infrastructure enhances freedom. A social safety net enhances freedom.
3.What should we do with the losers that are picked by the free market?
4. Do we live in a society or don't we? Are we a collective? Everybody's success is predicated on the hard work of all of us; nobody gets there on their own. Why should it be that the people who lose are hung out to dry? For a group that doesn't believe in evolution, it's awfully Darwinian.
5. In a representative democracy, we are the government. We have work to do, and we have a business to run, and we have children to raise.. We elect you as our representatives to look after our interests within a democratic system.
6.Is government inherently evil?
7.Sometimes to protect the greater liberty you have to do things like form an army, or gather a group together to build a wall or levy.
8. As soon as you've built an army, you've now said government isn't always inherently evil because we need it to help us sometimes, so now.. it's that old joke: Would you sleep with me for a million dollars? How about a dollar? -Who do you think I am?- We already decided who you are, now we're just negotiating.
9. You say: government which governs least governments best. But that were the Articles of Confederation. We tried that for 8 years, it didn't work, and went to the Constitution.
10.You give money to the IRS because you think they're gonna hire a bunch of people, that if your house catches on fire, will come there with water.
11.Why is it that libertarians trust a corporation, in certain matters, more than they trust representatives that are accountable to voters? The idea that I would give up my liberty to an insurance company, as opposed to my representative, seems insane.
12.Why is it that with competition, we have such difficulty with our health care system? ..and there are choices within the educational system.
13.Would you go back to 1890?
14.If we didn't have government, we'd all be in hovercrafts, and nobody would have cancer, and broccoli would be ice-cream?
15. Unregulated markets have been tried. The 80's and the 90's were the robber baron age. These regulations didn't come out of an interest in restricting liberty. What they did is came out of an interest in helping those that had been victimized by a system that they couldn't fight back against.
16. Why do you think workers that worked in the mines unionized?
17. Without the government there are no labor unions, because they would be smashed by Pinkerton agencies or people hired, or even sometimes the government.
18.Would the free market have desegregated restaurants in the South, or would the free market have done away with miscegenation, if it had been allowed to? Would Marten Luther King have been less effective than the free market? Those laws sprung up out of a majority sense of, in that time, that blacks should not.. The free market there would not have supported integrated lunch counters.
19.Government is necessary but must be held accountable for its decisions.
Stefan Molyneux answered these questions:
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One thing I noticed:
QuoteFor a group that doesn't believe in evolution, it's awfully Darwinian.
Wow....nice straw man asshole.
and that is why Jon Stewart, in a nutshell, is a comedian, not a philosopher. though I amoffended by the whole "Libertarians don't accept evolution". Libertarianism is a political and (to a certain extant) social philosophy, not a scientific worldview.
after all, there are a whole bunch of Atheists and (as far as I know) a single Theist on this website, who as far as can be told all accept evolution, and are libertarians.
it's not everyday that I would say this about Jon Stewart (of all people), but this has got to be in the next podcast.
I think that impression stems from Ron Paul, who's being pretty The Libertarian that errybody knows, who did say that he doesn't believe in evolution. So maybe, just maybe if some people would stop lauding him as their lord and savior... But what do I know.
I'm the guy who thinks that the idea of our universe being a cosmic frog that was/is/will be created by 12 aliens from a different universe, which is also a frog, has merit.
Good point on Ron Paul GM
Haven't seen Stefan's video (although I did see the episode, and I remember it as being much more friendly than the list portrays), so I'll give it my shot first:
Quote1.Is government the antithesis of liberty?
The initiation of force is the antithesis of liberty. The tool of government is force; when it uses that force to defend against the initiation of force, it is not the antithesis of liberty; in all other cases it is.
Quote2. One of the things that enhances freedoms are roads. Infrastructure enhances freedom. A social safety net enhances freedom.
That wasn't a question.
Quote3.What should we do with the losers that are picked by the free market?
Let them fail, pick up the pieces, and create new businesses that actually work, so that they can create more wealth and employ more people.
Quote4. Do we live in a society or don't we?
Yes.
QuoteAre we a collective?
No.
QuoteEverybody's success is predicated on the hard work of all of us; nobody gets there on their own. Why should it be that the people who lose are hung out to dry?
It's called "progress." The advent of automobiles meant that the makers of buggy whips were "hung out to dry." These people went on to create new businesses that provided more modern goods and services. What's the alternative, bailing out the buggy whip makers and subsidizing them with taxpayer money?
QuoteFor a group that doesn't believe in evolution, it's awfully Darwinian
No, most libertarians accept evolution. Are you sure you aren't confusing us with conservatives?
Quote5. In a representative democracy, we are the government.
Oh, if only that were true.
QuoteWe have work to do, and we have a business to run, and we have children to raise.. We elect you as our representatives to look after our interests within a democratic system.
That wasn't a question, either.
Quote6. Is government inherently evil?
No, but when government acts with good intentions it can be just as bad or worse as an evil one.
Quote7.Sometimes to protect the greater liberty you have to do things like form an army, or gather a group together to build a wall or levy.
Not a question, either.
Quote8. As soon as you've built an army, you've now said government isn't always inherently evil because we need it to help us sometimes, so now.. it's that old joke: Would you sleep with me for a million dollars? How about a dollar? -Who do you think I am?- We already decided who you are, now we're just negotiating.
I said that they weren't always inherently evil off the bat. And, this isn't a question either.
Quote9. You say: government which governs least governments best. But that were the Articles of Confederation. We tried that for 8 years, it didn't work, and went to the Constitution.
No, what didn't work was government debasing the continental currency. This is the reason why money under the Constitution can only be gold and silver.
Quote10.You give money to the IRS because you think they're gonna hire a bunch of people, that if your house catches on fire, will come there with water.
No, that's why you pay LOCAL taxes; the money you pay the IRS doesn't go to that.
Quote11.Why is it that libertarians trust a corporation, in certain matters, more than they trust representatives that are accountable to voters? The idea that I would give up my liberty to an insurance company, as opposed to my representative, seems insane.
Because representatives AREN'T accountable to voters. They're accountable to special interests who have far greater incentive to lobby for their special favors than we do to lobby against them.
We don't trust corporations, either, because they're creations of government made to get special favors. We trust businesses because businesses ARE accountable to us! Instead of voting every two or four years for a package deal, we vote on individual, independent business decisions numerous times a day. If a business does something we don't like, they lose our business. Look at the recent success Bank Of America's customers have had in getting them to change their debit card charge policy, for example.
Quote12.Why is it that with competition, we have such difficulty with our health care system?
Because we DON'T have as much competition with health care the way we do with, say computers. Government licensing boards restrict the number of licenses they give out, since they're largely made up of AMA members who have an incentive to keep the number of doctors down to keep salaries high. Other interventions such as price caps and limitations on insurance plans also mean that we have the fewest choices--and therefore the least competition--in the health care market.
Quote..and there are choices within the educational system.
Yes, you can pay for government schooling, or you can take your child to a private school...and STILL have to pay the government schools. They aren't harmed by you taking your business elsewhere, and so--unlike private and charter schools--they have no real incentive to succeed.
Quote13.Would you go back to 1890?
Only if there were a really cool party. Or if I could stop Van Gogh from killing himself.
Quote14.If we didn't have government, we'd all be in hovercrafts, and nobody would have cancer, and broccoli would be ice-cream?
Who knows? Who could have predicted the iPad or the robot car even 20 years ago? Those are the things that happen in the freest market we have. Those are the kinds of innovations we lose in other markets.
Quote15. Unregulated markets have been tried. The 80's and the 90's
were NOT unregulated markets. For crying out loud, tens of thousands of regulations were added to the CFR every year!
Quotewere the robber baron age.
You want to talk robber barons, Andrew Carnegie, Gustavus Swift, and J.D. Rockefeller helped the poor FAR more than any government welfare system--even ignoring their extensive philanthropy, their products made life better for the poor (heating oil, refrigerated meat, etc.) than they ever had been before, or were in the UK where the market was MUCH more stringently regulated. And in the process they created FAR more jobs than government ever could.
QuoteThese regulations didn't come out of an interest in restricting liberty. What they did is came out of an interest in helping those that had been victimized by a system that they couldn't fight back against.
What color is the sky on your planet? Meanwhile, on planet Earth, they were passed by extensive lobbying from big corporations because they knew it would keep smaller competition at bay.
Quote16. Why do you think workers that worked in the mines unionized?
Because they got benefits from those wonderful creations of the free market.
Quote17. Without the government there are no labor unions, because they would be smashed by Pinkerton agencies or people hired, or even sometimes the government.
Actually, Pinkerton always stopped short of initiating violence. That's why government had to be brought in. Without government, employers would have had no one to turn to for violence and would have had to deal with the unions.
Quote18.Would the free market have desegregated restaurants in the South,
It wouldn't have segregated them to begin with.
Quoteor would the free market have done away with miscegenation,
The free market has no mechanism for preventing people of different races from marrying and having children.
These things happened because of LAWS, and you don't pass laws to stop people from doing what they aren't doing anyway. They only had to pass the laws because the free market DIDN'T allow for those restrictions!
Quote19.Government is necessary but must be held accountable for its decisions.
Held accountable by whom? And to whom?
Quote from: Gumba Masta on November 01, 2011, 07:05:50 AM
I think that impression stems from Ron Paul, who's being pretty The Libertarian that errybody knows, who did say that he doesn't believe in evolution. So maybe, just maybe if some people would stop lauding him as their lord and savior... But what do I know.
I'm the guy who thinks that the idea of our universe being a cosmic frog that was/is/will be created by 12 aliens from a different universe, which is also a frog, has merit.
Yeah, I would like it if more famous libertarians started getting interviewed on places like the Daily Show. Someone like Michael Shermer would pretty much be perfect.
I don't know if Jon Stewart has had Shermer on before, but Stephen Colbert has.
I suppose I'll answer the questions too.
Here's this ancap's take on them (note, throughout this Q&A, I'll be using the anarchist definition of government, which is a group of individuals with the monopolistic legal and moral right to initiate force within a geographical area).
Quote1.Is government the antithesis of liberty?
Yes.
Quote2. One of the things that enhances freedoms are roads. Infrastructure enhances freedom. A social safety net enhances freedom.
Define "freedom" in this context. Also, I agree that those things are good. Just not economically, or morally sound when provided by a violent monopoly.
Quote3.What should we do with the losers that are picked by the free market?
Who's "we"? Are you using the royal "we"? If by "we" you mean "other people apart from said 'losers,'" I'd say this bit from the Hayek vs Keynes rap said it best:
"I don’t want to do nothing, there’s plenty to do
The question I ponder is who plans for whom?
Do I plan for myself or leave it to you?
I want plans by the many, not by the few.
Let’s not repeat what created our troubles
I want real growth not a series of bubbles
Stop bailing out loser, let prices work
If we don’t try to steer them they won’t go berserk"
Poetry. Pure poetry.
Quote4. Do we live in a society or don't we?
Eyup.
QuoteAre we a collective?
Nope. Last I checked, this ain't the borg.
QuoteEverybody's success is predicated on the hard work of all of us; nobody gets there on their own. Why should it be that the people who lose are hung out to dry?
*points to my answer to the above* When did I say, I'd "leave them out to dry"?
QuoteFor a group that doesn't believe in evolution, it's awfully Darwinian.
Excuse me? You must be confusing us for the conservatives/republicans. I believe in evolution, and so do most (if not all) of the libertarians and anarcho-capitalists I know.
Nevermind the fact statism--what you're in support of is the equivalent of Social Darwinism--the top down planner approach; if that's what you were getting at.
Quote5. In a representative democracy, we are the government. We have work to do, and we have a business to run, and we have children to raise.. We elect you as our representatives to look after our interests within a democratic system.
Not a question, also, we're technically a republic, but who's keeping track? :P
Simple rebutall: Wall Street Bail-outs. Also, you do know that if a politician who enacts a terrible policy is elected, even if he is given the boot, the policy still remains in place. Funny how many people seem to forget that little tidbit...
Quote6.Is government inherently evil?
Yes.
Quote7.Sometimes to protect the greater liberty you have to do things like form an army, or gather a group together to build a wall or levy.
But, WHY does the group that does it have to be a government? Or a group that, by definition, is the anti-thesis of liberty and freedom? What, is does being given a monopolistic right of violence make people gods? Or could it be that these things could be provided far more economically and morally sound via a free market?
Quote8. As soon as you've built an army, you've now said government isn't always inherently evil because we need it to help us sometimes, so now.. it's that old joke: Would you sleep with me for a million dollars? How about a dollar? -Who do you think I am?- We already decided who you are, now we're just negotiating.
See above. Why does the group that does that and this HAVE to be government? More cult of the omnipotent state here.
Quote9. You say: government which governs least governments best. But that were the Articles of Confederation. We tried that for 8 years, it didn't work, and went to the Constitution.
See Shane's reply. Also, while you're at it, why not check out Medieval Iceland and Ireland. Lasted 300 years before a civil war and lasted 700 - 1000 years respectively. Or the "Wild" West, which, despite all the romanticism, was actually pretty boring--more bank robberies in a year in modern day Dayton Ohio than in the entire Wild West period.
Quote10.You give money to the IRS because you think they're gonna hire a bunch of people, that if your house catches on fire, will come there with water.
Shane's reply; Also, I don't "give" them money anymore than a person who is extorted by the mob "gives" them money. Also, Look up crowding out for me.
Quote11.Why is it that libertarians trust a corporation, in certain matters, more than they trust representatives that are accountable to voters? The idea that I would give up my liberty to an insurance company, as opposed to my representative, seems insane.
1. We do not trust corporations. Corporations, by definition, are creations of government. Yeah, I don't have any more to add to this than Shane already said. :P
Quote12.Why is it that with competition, we have such difficulty with our health care system? ..and there are choices within the educational system.
Shane's reply again. Snore. Like this hasn't been rebutted countless times.
Quote13.Would you go back to 1890?
Only if I could take Dick Van Dyke with me, so we could do a real live performance of that Chimney Sweep Song of his. ;D
Oh, you meant economic policy? Eh, not really. It was getting pretty corporatist by then. Also, I do hope you're not implying that returning to freer economic policy would mean a return to bigotries from those days as well, hm? Surely, you wouldn't be that pigheaded, good sir.
Quote14.If we didn't have government, we'd all be in hovercrafts, and nobody would have cancer, and broccoli would be ice-cream?
Shane's reply. Also, I never said I could predict the future, bro.
Quote15. Unregulated markets have been tried. The 80’s and the 90’s were the robber baron age. These regulations didn't come out of an interest in restricting liberty. What they did is came out of an interest in helping those that had been victimized by a system that they couldn't fight back against.
NOT a question, dude.
Shane's reply. Also, I can do you one better: the 20 years following the Civil War were the most free we ever had economically, yet the poor you talk of saw the biggest economic improvements of any time period before or since. Funny how you fail to mention that. :P
Quote16. Why do you think workers that worked in the mines unionized?
Union. You mean as they were originally created--mutual aid societies for workers on a free market? Or the gov't entrenched special interest labor monopolies they are today? Please be more specific.
Also, Shane's reply did good on this too.
Quote17. Without the government there are no labor unions, because they would be smashed by Pinkerton agencies or people hired, or even sometimes the government.
Shane I rebutted this above. Unions were originally a free market creation; hence your entire point is bunk. Also, you do know that those big wigs hired the government to use violence because the private agencies wouldn't. You know that right?
Quote18.Would the free market have desegregated restaurants in the South, or would the free market have done away with miscegenation, if it had been allowed to? Would Marten Luther King have been less effective than the free market? Those laws sprung up out of a majority sense of, in that time, that blacks should not.. The free market there would not have supported integrated lunch counters.
Shane pretty much rebutted this bit of race-card crap already.
Quote19.Government is necessary
[Citation Needed]
Quotebut must be held accountable for its decisions.
Yeah? And how's that working out for you?
Yeah, as you can probably tell, I was getting a bit impatient with his long refuted talking points around the halfway point. :P
Likely to be redundancy here but I dont' like to be left out.
1.Is government the antithesis of liberty?
The initiation of coercion is the antithesis of liberty. The government is a group of people who are given a free pass to initiate coercion.
In other words, coercion is the antithesis of liberty. Government is just a label slapped on it to sound better.
2. One of the things that enhances freedoms are roads. Infrastructure enhances freedom. A social safety net enhances freedom.
Meaningless buzz words. The idea that roads can't be built without government is unfounded both logically and emperically.
3.What should we do with the losers that are picked by the free market?
What should we do with the losers who are picked by the olympics or proffessional sports? People live to compete and that means some will win and some will lose. They should pick up the pieces, reflect on their actions and find out where they went wrong so they can try again. These are things we learned when we were 5 so I find it very alarming that I have to explain them to you.
4. Do we live in a society or don't we?
Yes, what's your point?
Are we a collective?
No, we're all individuals. To claim otherwise is to say that human lives are interchangeable, a dangerous and sociapathic viewpoint indeed.
Everybody's success is predicated on the hard work of all of us; nobody gets there on their own. Why should it be that the people who lose are hung out to dry?
Would you play a game that penalized you for winning and rewarded you for losing? Would anyone ever learn and grow from such a game? Think about it.
For a group that doesn't believe in evolution, it's awfully Darwinian.
Darwin's theory is nothing like that. Don't try to bring science into the discussion if you don't actually understand it please. You'll just embarrass yourself.
5. In a representative democracy, we are the government. We have work to do, and we have a business to run, and we have children to raise.. We elect you as our representatives to look after our interests within a democratic system.
Why then do we not want war and yet keep getting it? Why did the bailouts pass despite near nobody being in favor of them? I could go on and on. Pretty words fail before emperical evidence I'm afraid.
6.Is government inherently evil?
Government inherently attracts evil because it provides the two things evil people want: something for nothing and to be shielded from the consequences of their actions. It's possible to have a government of saints but the odds are WAY tipped against that.
7.Sometimes to protect the greater liberty you have to do things like form an army, or gather a group together to build a wall or levy.
All of which can easily be done without a government and done better since such endeavors would have to win over the public rather than simply seize the funds by force.
8. As soon as you've built an army, you've now said government isn't always inherently evil because we need it to help us sometimes, so now.. it's that old joke: Would you sleep with me for a million dollars? How about a dollar? -Who do you think I am?- We already decided who you are, now we're just negotiating.
I'd appreciate not having words put in my mouth. I have no idea who you're responding to with this.
9. You say: government which governs least governments best. But that were the Articles of Confederation. We tried that for 8 years, it didn't work, and went to the Constitution.
You've tried big government for 6000 years and it still can't get it's act together and yet I'm supposed to accept that next time will be different?
10.You give money to the IRS because you think they're gonna hire a bunch of people, that if your house catches on fire, will come there with water.
Give implies voluntary action. The IRS took my money by force. Also, despite higher taxes than ever, fire departments have been getting closed down all over the country and there's been plenty of horror stories of ones simply not coming when someone needed them. Care to explain?
11.Why is it that libertarians trust a corporation, in certain matters, more than they trust representatives that are accountable to voters? The idea that I would give up my liberty to an insurance company, as opposed to my representative, seems insane.
I don't trust a corporation, the're a fictional legal entity created by governments.
Representatives are not accountable. Is anyone in the Bush administration serving time for mass murder? Is anyone in the Federal Reserve facing fraud charges? Are any of the politicians who broke their campaign promises being called to account for it?
12.Why is it that with competition, we have such difficulty with our health care system? ..and there are choices within the educational system.
Yes, the choice of pay for public education or pay for public education. Yay...
If you think healthcare is free market, try practicing medicine without Govco's say so and see how far you get.
13.Would you go back to 1890?
Why would I want to?
14.If we didn't have government, we'd all be in hovercrafts, and nobody would have cancer, and broccoli would be ice-cream?
I'm still waiting for your idealism to produce these...surely 6000 years was enough.
15. Unregulated markets have been tried. The 80's and the 90's were the robber baron age. These regulations didn't come out of an interest in restricting liberty. What they did is came out of an interest in helping those that had been victimized by a system that they couldn't fight back against.
10,000 more pages of regulation per year is unregulated? So you contend that wasn't enough? How about 20,000? 30,000? How much until we see the promised results?
16. Why do you think workers that worked in the mines unionized?
To be in a better bargaining position. What's your point?
17. Without the government there are no labor unions, because they would be smashed by Pinkerton agencies or people hired, or even sometimes the government.
Without government they would be smashed by the government...brilliant logic there!
Why exactly do you need government to get together with your fellow employees and bargain collectively with your boss? How exactly would they be smashed with no government? Shooting your employees is not a very effective way to get them back to work.
18.Would the free market have desegregated restaurants in the South, or would the free market have done away with miscegenation, if it had been allowed to? Would Marten Luther King have been less effective than the free market? Those laws sprung up out of a majority sense of, in that time, that blacks should not.. The free market there would not have supported integrated lunch counters.
Jim crow laws? Never heard of 'em...
Even if we accept your fairy tale as truth, If you go to a store owner, point a gun at him and demand he provide service to someone, explain to me how you're the good guy here because I just don't see it.
19.Government is necessary but must be held accountable for its decisions.
Voodoo is necessary but must be held accountable for any evil spirits it releases.
See? I can make bald assertions too.
Quote from: Lord T Hawkeye on November 02, 2011, 06:56:20 PM
Likely to be redundancy here but I dont' like to be left out.
Sorry, who are you? Have we met?
You wound me Shane
Quote from: Lord T Hawkeye on November 02, 2011, 06:56:20 PM
6.Is government inherently evil?
Government inherently attracts evil because it provides the two things evil people want: something for nothing and to be shielded from the consequences of their actions. It's possible to have a government of saints but the odds are WAY tipped against that.
(emphasis added by me).
Not only that, but when has that EVER happened in the ~6000 years of brutal state history?