has a pure 'free market' ever existed?

[sfiorare]

at least one person has said that california during the gold rush was possibly and example of a time when there was a pure 'free market' system in operation; i think that's not accurate, but i invite anyone to debate this


here's a video of thomas woods addressing wild west days:

[yt]wEOIY7eGaTc[/yt]

it seems to have been offered as support for the pure 'free market' assertion

[MrBogosity]

Another excellent illustration is Plymouth Plantation, which you can read about in Governor Bradford's history.

It started out being quite socialist, with everyone's production going into a common kitty. After something like 3 years of starvation, the governor switched to a private property model, where everybody got to keep what they made, and they flourished. There aren't many clear before-and-after examples like that.

[Travis Retriever]

Something I would like to see him do is to provide some better backing for this statement:
"a 'free market' is an abstract concept used by economists to create economic models; there is no real 'free market', nor is it possible to achieve in reality"

As for this statement of his: "if a pure 'free market' economy can exist outside of abstract theory, than you should be able to provide a real example of it, please do so"

I stand by my response to that on youtube: "His comment was about as nonsensical as 'If a "nonslave economy" can exist outside of abstract theory, than you should be able to provide a real example of it, please do so' when said before there were societies without slavery..."
Not a very convincing 'argument', really.

[MrBogosity]

A free market is just an absence of force. If you're sitting there doing something, and no one is using force against you and you're not using force against anyone else, then technically for the moment you're acting in a pure free market.

[VectorM]

why is it that libertarians seem to be trying to revise history?

Yeah, clearly, they are just trying to revise the oh so obvious history of the Wild West. Everyone knows that people were shooting each other every day in those days. At least 10 men would die in duels every week and bank robberies we considered a normal part of life.

JUST LIKE IN THE MOVIES!

Seriously...

I guess the people that claim Einstein didn't suck at math are also trying to revise history to further their Zionist agenda, right?

[sfiorare]

Another excellent illustration is Plymouth Plantation

i'd like to focus on one issue at a time and address the california gold rush, first

can we agree that the gold rush timeframe was 1848 to 1855?

[sfiorare]

Yeah, clearly, they are just trying to revise the oh so obvious history of the Wild West. Everyone knows that people were shooting each other every day in those days. At least 10 men would die in duels every week and bank robberies we considered a normal part of life.

JUST LIKE IN THE MOVIES!

Seriously...

I guess the people that claim Einstein didn't suck at math are also trying to revise history to further their Zionist agenda, right?

i'm not talking about movies, i'm talking about documented history

The Act for the Government and Protection of Indians, passed on April 22, 1850 by the California Legislature, allowed settlers to continue the Californio practice of capturing and using Native people as bonded workers. It also provided the basis for the enslavement and trafficking in Native American labor, particularly that of young women and children, which was carried on as a legal business enterprise. Native American villages were regularly raided to supply the demand, and young women and children were carried off to be sold, the men and remaining people often being killed in genocidal attacks.

source: Heizer, Robert F. (1974). The destruction of California Indians. Lincoln and London: Univ. of Nebraska Press. p. 243.

Indenture Law passed.  The Act for the Government and Protection of Indians was enacted which provided for the indenture or apprenticeship of Indians of all ages to any white citizen for long periods of time.  Was a common practice from 1850 until 1863.

http://www.shastacountyhistory.com/important_dates_in_indian_history

[MrBogosity]

i'd like to focus on one issue at a time and address the california gold rush, first

can we agree that the gold rush timeframe was 1848 to 1855?

I don't know where you get that ending time from; most of the activity was in 1849-50; by 1850 most of the gold that was easy to get to had pretty much been mined. Besides, 1850 was when California became a state, and we're talking about the pre-statist time.

[MrBogosity]

i'm not talking about movies, i'm talking about documented history

You mean, like the statistics showing only 1 murder per 100,000 (and in many places, 0)? How many places in the US today can boast of such a low rate?

The Act for the Government and Protection of Indians, passed on April 22, 1850 by the California Legislature, allowed settlers to continue the Californio practice of capturing and using Native people as bonded workers. It also provided the basis for the enslavement and trafficking in Native American labor, particularly that of young women and children, which was carried on as a legal business enterprise. Native American villages were regularly raided to supply the demand, and young women and children were carried off to be sold, the men and remaining people often being killed in genocidal attacks.

So, wait...because GOVERNMENT committed these atrocities, that somehow means the free market is bad???

Indenture Law passed.

More government activity. Irrelevant.

[sfiorare]

I don't know where you get that ending time from; most of the activity was in 1849-50; by 1850 most of the gold that was easy to get to had pretty much been mined. Besides, 1850 was when California became a state, and we're talking about the pre-statist time.

for convenience, it came from wiki, other sources say 1848 to 1859

http://www.kidport.com/reflib/usahistory/calgoldrush/calgoldrush.htm

but, if you want to use 1849 & 1850, i can work with that

[sfiorare]

You mean, like the statistics showing only 1 murder per 100,000 (and in many places, 0)? How many places in the US today can boast of such a low rate?

i doubt that it's valid to compare stats from 19th century california to the 20th/21st centuries

during 1848 and much of 1849, i don't think there were really any cities in alta california, just settlements, missions, ranches and settlers with lots of distance between them

So, wait...because GOVERNMENT committed these atrocities, that somehow means the free market is bad???

More government activity. Irrelevant.

people committed atrocities, the act i mentioned says "allowed settlers to continue the Californio practice of capturing and using Native people as bonded workers"; it was happening before, during and after 1849

my point is that native people were being forced work as servants

[MrBogosity]

during 1848 and much of 1849, i don't think there were really any cities in alta california, just settlements, missions, ranches and settlers with lots of distance between them

San Francisco was a big city, mostly because of the port. They boomed during the gold rush. Sacramento and San Jose had a lot to do with it, too.

the act i mentioned says "allowed settlers to continue the Californio practice

That was what the MEXICAN GOVERNMENT had been doing. NOT the free market.

my point is that native people were being forced work as servants

If there's force, it ain't a free market. Get that into your head!

[sfiorare]

Something I would like to see him do is to provide some better backing for this statement:
"a 'free market' is an abstract concept used by economists to create economic models; there is no real 'free market', nor is it possible to achieve in reality"

As for this statement of his: "if a pure 'free market' economy can exist outside of abstract theory, than you should be able to provide a real example of it, please do so"

I stand by my response to that on youtube: "His comment was about as nonsensical as 'If a "nonslave economy" can exist outside of abstract theory, than you should be able to provide a real example of it, please do so' when said before there were societies without slavery..."
Not a very convincing 'argument', really.

read this and then get back to me if you have any questions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_model

[Travis Retriever]

read this and then get back to me if you have any questions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_model

Which part of it?
It all seems irrelevant to me.

[sfiorare]

San Francisco was a big city, mostly because of the port. They boomed during the gold rush. Sacramento and San Jose had a lot to do with it, too.

i lived in san francisco from 2/1991 until 7/2005 and was quite interested in and somewhat familiar with local history

it took a little while for the people to get there, so it depends on exactly what date you're referring to

The population of San Francisco exploded from perhaps 1,000[11] in 1848 to 25,000 full-time residents by 1850.[12]

[11] Holliday, J. S. (1999), p. 51 ("800 residents").

[12] Rawls, James J. and Orsi, Richard J. (eds.) (1999). A golden state: mining and economic development in Gold Rush California (California History Sesquicentennial Series, 2). Berkeley and Los Angeles: University of California Press. p. 187.

That was what the MEXICAN GOVERNMENT had been doing. NOT the free market.

If there's force, it ain't a free market. Get that into your head!

that's my point, a free market didn't exist in california and hasn't ever existed anywhere