Self Ownership: Arguments Against and their Refutations

Started by Travis Retriever, September 23, 2010, 10:42:18 PM

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September 23, 2010, 10:42:18 PM Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 11:04:26 PM by surhotchaperchlorome
So what good arguments are there against the principle of self ownership, and what are their refutations?

One argument for it was from Stefan Molyneux.  It went as follows.  In order to argue against self ownership, you must use self ownership; that is, exclusive control over your body.  If you are not responsible for your argument (another part of ownership) then why even have it because that implies you don't have said control over your body.  As such, any further argument would be fruitless.
Because no argument can therefore ever be made against self ownership without being a performative contradiction, self ownership must be true.

Here is an argument against Stefan's:  [yt]g9b7NheAsdc[/yt]
(wait until until 6:10 in this video for the part about property rights)

For one, his arguments ignores the difference between De Facto property rights (direct control) and De Jure (written into law) property rights.  Given that the former is a fact, getting to the latter isn't too hard.  Laws need to be based on descriptive facts.  Just like with gravity. The fact that masses attract one another (De Facto) and the equations of Einstein and Newton (De Jure).
Also, according to WordNet, Princeton's Online dictionary a right in this context is: "(an abstract idea of that which is due to a person or governmental body by law or tradition or nature)" Note the last word, nature.
In FlowCell's video regarding John Locke and the philosophy of liberty, he noted the fact that in isolation and starting from nothing else, you have control over your own body, meaning that self ownership is not only true, but is the natural default state.  Just like Atheism is the natural default state of knowledge.
SR makes a point about analyzing the counterarguments' format as a means to defeat said counterargument to be hubristic.
Even if this is true, it still doesn't doesn't effect the quality or the truth of the argument itself, but is rather just a statement of personal opinion.

So what arguments have you seen mounted against self ownership?
And what is the refutation to said arguments?
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world—'No. You move.'"
-Captain America, Amazing Spider-Man 537

September 25, 2010, 01:24:45 PM #1 Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 01:41:56 PM by surhotchaperchlorome
Two days and no additional arguments against self ownership?

Glad to know this principle stands unopposed. :)
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world—'No. You move.'"
-Captain America, Amazing Spider-Man 537