Top 10 favorite collectivist arguments

[Lord T Hawkeye]

I want to do a journal entry detailing and debunking the top 10 collectivist arguments but I'd rather get lots of input from others on the topic.  My personal fav...

"People are evil and selfish and can't be trusted to run things themselves"

First of all, are you saying that the only reason you don't steal, rape and murder is because you're afraid of the government punishing you?  If you can't imagine someone being good simply for it's own sake, I consider you insane to say the least...

Second, this statement is blatant special pleading.  If your answer to my question up there is "no", then you're special pleading for yourself.  Not to mention you're also special pleading for the people you want to put into a position of power.  It's like saying the best way to keep order in a prison of serial killers is to appoint a serial killer as the warden.  Not smart.


"Who will build roads, provide education, provide health care, etc..."

You will

Yeah, I mean that.  If you think those are things society needs, you'll find a way to see that they are fulfilled.  If you and/or society can't be bothered, then they weren't worthy causes in the first place.

Anyone who thinks only governments can provide those things needs to read more history.  People were providing all of those things long LONG before government was doing them so try and keep some perspective.

[MrBogosity]

"People are evil and selfish and can't be trusted to run things themselves"

So, then, the solution is to take some of these evil, selfish people who can't be trusted to run things and have them run everything.

First of all, are you saying that the only reason you don't steal, rape and murder is because you're afraid of the government punishing you?  If you can't imagine someone being good simply for it's own sake, I consider you insane to say the least...

Oddly enough, the very same answer many of these people (who are also atheist skeptics; Thunderf00t comes to mind) say to theists.

[Travis Retriever]

I want to do a journal entry detailing and debunking the top 10 collectivist arguments but I'd rather get lots of input from others on the topic.  My personal fav...

"People are evil and selfish and can't be trusted to run things themselves"

Or its cousin, "People are too stupid to run things and need planners."

[VectorM]

"Guns increase crime rates" would a be classical one.

"Healthcare is a right!", yet I never see them say that food is a right too.

"FDR saved the U.S. from The Great Depression" could be my favorite.

[Travis Retriever]

"Without anti-discrimination laws, nobody would hire minorites/women/disabled people/etc" is another good one.

"Without government welfare, the poor would starve to death." and "You don't care about the poor!" are also good ones.

"Without airport security, the war on terror, and our interventionist foreign policy, the terrorists would kill all of us!" I facepalm whenver I see this one...

"Fiat currency may be inherently inflationary, but a gold standard is inherently deflationary!  So it's pick your poison."  ...and this one.

"The free market is an idealistic crock, just like communism."  I get pissed off when I see this one.

[Gumba Masta]

"The free market is an idealistic crock, just like communism."  I get pissed off when I see this one.

About that one, I must say that most people I've met and that've talked about the free market have tried to sell it as a miracle cure-all panache in the same way you see the snake oil merchant in Pete's Dragon peddle their wares. Which did'nt really seemed to increase their trustworthyness, in my oppinion.

[MrBogosity]

There is a bit of that going on, and it's a problem, but on the other hand you have that in any political ideology. Look at how many liberals sell their policies as perfect cure-all panaceas.

[AHPMB]

I always like, government control of distribution will lead to more equal access to resources.  Case in point, Venezuela a major oil producing nation, which is now on power and water rationing after The Mambo Chimp, Chavez nationalized the power industries.  So in a way, I guess they're right, everyone in Venezuela will soon be equally squalid, just like in Cuba.

[Lord T Hawkeye]

About that one, I must say that most people I've met and that've talked about the free market have tried to sell it as a miracle cure-all panache in the same way you see the snake oil merchant in Pete's Dragon peddle their wares. Which did'nt really seemed to increase their trustworthyness, in my oppinion.

They all have flaws, the difference is that free market works despite all the flaws.  All the other systems only work in a fantasy world where nobody ever tries to exploit the system.

[MrBogosity]

Or to put it another way, the advantages of the free market vastly outweigh the problems. That cannot be said of any kind of centralized control.

[Gumba Masta]

Or, of all the flawed systems this is the best one?

[VectorM]

Another thing I see mentioned often is how government provides electricity and water. And how without it, these things wouldn't be as commonly available as they are now. To which I would always reply like this:

"Is government providing you with Internet? Is it providing you with cars? With food? Damn, those things really are scares when I think about it. NOT!"

I guess this would be the same as the roads and schools thing, but still.

[MrBogosity]

It's interesting, isn't it? Again, many of them are skeptics (like Thunderf00t), and yet on this issue they resort to anecdotal evidence, which they (rightly) reject from creationists and other peddlers of woo.

I wonder if they even realize it?

[Gumba Masta]

Is that why many roads and power grids are in such a horrendeusly rotten state?

[MrBogosity]

Exactly.

Remember the recent blackouts? Where a problem at ONE plant takes out almost the entire northeast power grid? Do you REALLY think a free market would have EVER made a system as horrible as that?