Stef's Video on Nelson Mandela

[Skm1091]

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[MrBogosity]

I think he's getting a bit deconstructionist here. A couple of thoughts:

1) Admiring someone for something good they did does NOT mean you have to accept other bad things they might have done.

2) In the American Revolutionary War, innocent civilians were killed all over the place (as is pretty much unavoidable in war). Yet, I'm unaware of George Washington saying the acts he committed were wrong. If we're looking for consistency here, if Mandela was a terrorist then so was Washington (as George III would certainly have considered him to be, had the word existed at the time).

3) So, what came about after the revolution was in many ways worse than what predated it. As if THAT'S never happened before! I mean really, is it Mandela's fault that the current president is an AIDS denier?

I think all of my objections fit into one of those three categories.

[Travis Retriever]

2) In the American Revolutionary War, innocent civilians were killed all over the place (as is pretty much unavoidable in war). Yet, I'm unaware of George Washington saying the acts he committed were wrong. If we're looking for consistency here, if Mandela was a terrorist then so was Washington (as George III would certainly have considered him to be, had the word existed at the time).

Which sounds like a reason to not have war in the first place, as you've once told me.

[Skm1091]

Which sounds like a reason to not have war in the first place, as you've once told me.

Pretty much.

[MrBogosity]

Which sounds like a reason to not have war in the first place, as you've once told me.

It's a reason not to create war; it's not a reason not to defend yourself when others wage war against you.

[Travis Retriever]

It's a reason not to create war; it's not a reason not to defend yourself when others wage war against you.

I suppose.  I didn't bother to watch the video, tbh.

[tnu]

Wow even around here Mandela is a divisive subject.. I actually don't know mucho f anything about the man. Havn't seen much testimony or evidence either way so I would have tolabel myself clueless.-

[Lord T Hawkeye]

From the sounds of the vid, he's another Che.  Hailed for taking down a tyrannical government as long as you ignore the fact that he replaced it with his own brand of tyranny.

"So, what came about after the revolution was in many ways worse than what predated it. As if THAT'S never happened before! I mean really, is it Mandela's fault that the current president is an AIDS denier"

If Stef speaks the truth, he implemented communism.  The country going to shit was as inevitable as the tides in that case.

[MrBogosity]

If Stef speaks the truth, he implemented communism.  The country going to shit was as inevitable as the tides in that case.

Communism was the only other thing to do at the time. It was the Cold War, remember. It was either oust the current government and implement a communist one to get the protection of the Soviets, or stick with Apartheid.

[Skm1091]

If Stef speaks the truth, he implemented communism.  The country going to shit was as inevitable as the tides in that case.

Pretty much, look at Zimbabwe.

You guys all know about Rhodesia right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesia

Before it was Zimbabwe it was known as the Bread basket of Africa now its the basket case of Africa.

[Dallas Wildman]

I think he's getting a bit deconstructionist here. A couple of thoughts:

1) Admiring someone for something good they did does NOT mean you have to accept other bad things they might have done.

2) In the American Revolutionary War, innocent civilians were killed all over the place (as is pretty much unavoidable in war). Yet, I'm unaware of George Washington saying the acts he committed were wrong. If we're looking for consistency here, if Mandela was a terrorist then so was Washington (as George III would certainly have considered him to be, had the word existed at the time).

3) So, what came about after the revolution was in many ways worse than what predated it. As if THAT'S never happened before! I mean really, is it Mandela's fault that the current president is an AIDS denier?

I think all of my objections fit into one of those three categories.

1) But what good did HE do?  As Stef pointed out under Madiba's reign South Africa went from lynching blacks to lynching EVERYBODY.

2) My only quibble with this point is the ends they sought.  Washington was fighting for a freer society (even though he did own slaves) Mandela wasn't.

3) No, but he is still very much to blame for bringing about its current political system

[Skm1091]

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[evensgrey]

2) My only quibble with this point is the ends they sought.  Washington was fighting for a freer society (even though he did own slaves) Mandela wasn't.

Does anyone have any specifics on Washington's beliefs about slavery?  If he was an Abolitionist, he would hardly have been the only such person who found himself in the embarrassing position of also owning slaves and having difficulties freeing them.

[MrBogosity]

Does anyone have any specifics on Washington's beliefs about slavery?  If he was an Abolitionist, he would hardly have been the only such person who found himself in the embarrassing position of also owning slaves and having difficulties freeing them.

Washington and Jefferson both ran into legal difficulties freeing their slaves. For example, any freed slave could be captured and resold 12 months later.

It's things like this that which should make you wary of ANY attempt at deconstruction. Usually, as I've pointed out here, they're completely devoid of context and not at all sympathetic to the Catch-22s many of these people found themselves in.

[Skm1091]

Washington and Jefferson both ran into legal difficulties freeing their slaves. For example, any freed slave could be captured and resold 12 months later.

It's things like this that which should make you wary of ANY attempt at deconstruction. Usually, as I've pointed out here, they're completely devoid of context and not at all sympathetic to the Catch-22s many of these people found themselves in.

Washington did free his slaves in the end though, didn't he?