Wikiislam Any opinions? input?

[Skm1091]

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Propaganda

To me this site is like rationalwiki. They are right on somethings, down right wrong and dishonest in others.

[Skm1091]

Example of dishonesty/inaccuracy here, is when they say lying is permitted

From the wiki in post above

Islam is the only major world religion which allows, encourages, and even demands[1] lying by its followers. Lying for Islam is generally (but inaccurately) referred to as taqiyya. Many Muslims will claim that this is not an Islamic, but a Shi'ite practice. However, this is not true. There are many verses in the Qur'an which condone lying and deception,[2][3][4] and several classical and contemporary Sunni scholars have validated its place within main-stream Islam.[5][6] In the inquisition miḥna during the Caliphate of al-Ma'mun, a number of Sunni scholars used taqiyya, attesting to the Qur'an as having been created despite believing the opposite.[7] Given these facts, some will go on to attack the strict definition of taqiyya and claim that it is "only allowed to save one's own life" or that its "restricted to its use in war". This is where the critics use of the term "taqiyya" is wrong. Lying outside of trying to save one's life or a war is certainly permitted in Islam, but it is not referred to as taqiyya. It is more accurate to simply call it "lying for Islam". In sahih (authentic) hadith, Muhammad admits to being a liar[8] and advises its acceptable for Muslims to do likewise,[9] allowing his followers to use deception to silence critics.[10] One of the 99 "holy names" of the Islamic deity is Al-Makir (the Deceiver),[11] and in the Qur'an Allah refers to himself as the 'best deceiver',[12][13][14][15][16] and admits to deceiving Muslims[17] and creating Christianity through deception.[18] With all things considered, the fact remains that Islamic teachings as a whole encourage dishonesty and even elevates it to a holy status.

There is this Taqiyya conspiracy that says that muslims can deceive people to advance their cause.

First of all Taqiyya IS a Shia practice

Muslims are NOT taught to lie to non muslims

Former Muslims have called people out on this issue, many of them have never even heard of this word while they were Muslims.

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[Ibrahim90]

Can't access the wiki from my phone too well, but you're right: I do have to add though that the measures present are to protect a person's life (for this "taqiyya") and belief. For example, if an Atheist would do Sth similar, it would be as follows:

Guy who kills atheist: "are you an atheist?"
Other guy *lying*: "no".

It has to do with protecting Shias (always a minority) from Sunnis. In fact the word itself means "preventative" or "protective measure".


. I suspect their coverage of holy war will be just as absurd. What does it say?

[Skm1091]

Can't access the wiki from my phone too well, but you're right: I do have to add though that the measures present are to protect a person's life (for this "taqiyya") and belief. For example, if an Atheist would do Sth similar, it would be as follows:

Guy who kills atheist: "are you an atheist?"
Other guy *lying*: "no".

It has to do with protecting Shias (always a minority) from Sunnis. In fact the word itself means "preventative" or "protective measure".


. I suspect their coverage of holy war will be just as absurd. What does it say?

They don't have an article but have some verses from islamic scriptures.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/War

This could be cherry picking, I don't know much about islamic text. But I have to say even if these were true, most Muslims would follow these about as well as christians are commanded to love thy neighbor. Also The ones following these verses would most likely belong to sects like the Wahhabi.

[Ibrahim90]

Had a feeling....

Yeah, they usually are. Most verses are followed by "and if they cease, God's forgiving" (I.e. you stop), or similar. Long story with what all happened. 

[Skm1091]

Like I said before this place does have some good articles debunking the "scientific miracles" in the Koran peddled by the likes of Harun Yahya, and Zakir Naik, both of whom deny the theory of evolution btw. They do a pretty good job much like Rationalwiki on science minus the politics.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an_and_the_Big_Bang

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/NATVRAE_MIRABILIS_ORIGINISQVE_DIVINAE_GEORGICAE_VERGILII

This one bellow is not from wikiislam but its pretty good and you get my point It also shows the similarity with the one with the 'miracles' from GEORGICA by VIRGLE

http://www.infidels.org/kiosk/article362.html

[Ibrahim90]

Ah yes, those ass-hats. I seriously cannot to this day understand why anyone follows those two frauds. In that respect, any article debunking them is a favor.

[Skm1091]

Ah yes, those ass-hats. I seriously cannot to this day understand why anyone follows those two frauds. In that respect, any article debunking them is a favor.

Oh yeah when I saw their works for the first time I wanted to put forks in my eyes. Harun Yahya actually said that evolution is a western christian plot to subvert the morals of islamic youth. Nuts ain't it.

Lets not forget Zindani who QUOTE-MINED several scientists . TheRationalizer has videos on his channel interviewing some of the scientist that Zindani interviewed saying they were quote-mined or taken out of context.

Channel link- http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRationalizer

Also Some of the example that naik used was just sick. He used a referenced of peoples skins being burned off and then their skins replaced again to make a 'miracle' claim on pain receptors. Sick ain't it? Much like those medieval church fire and brimstone preachers who claim that when they see their parents in hell they will laugh with joy. Or the people who made this video

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These kinds of people absolutely INFURIATES me. Sometimes these people makes me wish I had a magic box that would teleport them to the hell of my own liking.

Like this one for example
http://www.hell-on-line.org/AboutZOR.html

And I would keep them there, and never let them out. EVER!!!

Hey that's what SOBs preach so they better expect the same sentiment in return.

GRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

............Now that I got that out of my system

*deep breath* *deep breath* *Meditating*

[Ibrahim90]

I know, I know. I have to tell them every day that it's not their judgement that determines who goes where: it's God's alone (from the Muslim perspective). And clearly they never heard of the Muslim Limbo...yeah, there is one in the beliefs of Islam, at least if you read the Qur'an. It's why I say such are the ultimate blasphemers: they are appropriating for themselves God's prerogative. Another reason I got ed up with the mainline sects, and went my separate way.

In any event, this is symptomatic of the conditions there: people have lost their way over their, because of changes in religious attitude. they have all this information, all these hadiths and so forth, and clearly not the mental faculties (or training), to understand them, and sort out the bullshit from the acceptable.

[Skm1091]

I know, I know. I have to tell them every day that it's not their judgement that determines who goes where: it's God's alone (from the Muslim perspective). And clearly they never heard of the Muslim Limbo...yeah, there is one in the beliefs of Islam, at least if you read the Qur'an. It's why I say such are the ultimate blasphemers: they are appropriating for themselves God's prerogative. Another reason I got ed up with the mainline sects, and went my separate way.

In any event, this is symptomatic of the conditions there: people have lost their way over their, because of changes in religious attitude. they have all this information, all these hadiths and so forth, and clearly not the mental faculties (or training), to understand them, and sort out the bullshit from the acceptable.

Muslim limbo eh?

The most popular Hadith for Sunnis I believe is Sahih Al-Bukhari, am I correct?

For Shia I believe it is Kitab Al-Kafi, 

Also wasn't the Hadith written at least a hundred years after Muhammad died? If that's the case there is a problem. Since most of the stories were kept orally there is no telling how much it got distorted over time. Hear say has a tendency to do that when it travels long distance, especially in the days of no email  or facebook. If everything was kept alive orally there is also another problem and that is which Hadiths are "authentic" and which ones are false or weak. See the problem here.

BTW The one thing I found kinda interesting was the concept of the Jinn AKA Genie of the Lamp.

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I believe the Pre-Islamic Arabs also believed in these beings a millennium prior to Islam's arrival.

[evensgrey]

BTW The one thing I found kinda interesting was the concept of the Jinn AKA Genie of the Lamp.

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I believe the Pre-Islamic Arabs also believed in these beings a millennium prior to Islam's arrival.

As I understand it, Iblis was a named djinn that got imported into Islam from pre-Islamic mythology, and has much the same sort of role as the Devil in Christian mythology.  (Islam also has the concept of Satan in it, but much closer to the Jewish concept of a force in opposition to people, not God.  Satan is a title applied to a being performing a specific mythological function, which may be directly serving God and carrying out it's directives, not a being's name.)

[Skm1091]

As I understand it, Iblis was a named djinn that got imported into Islam from pre-Islamic mythology, and has much the same sort of role as the Devil in Christian mythology.  (Islam also has the concept of Satan in it, but much closer to the Jewish concept of a force in opposition to people, not God.  Satan is a title applied to a being performing a specific mythological function, which may be directly serving God and carrying out it's directives, not a being's name.)

It is pretty hard to find stuff on pre islamic arabia

[Skm1091]

Other people I do not like

Hamza Tzortzis

Adnan Rashid

[Ibrahim90]

Muslim limbo eh?

The most popular Hadith for Sunnis I believe is Sahih Al-Bukhari, am I correct?

For Shia I believe it is Kitab Al-Kafi,

yes--the Sunnie sect also cites sahih muslim, timadhi, etc.

Also wasn't the Hadith written at least a hundred years after Muhammad died?

the earliest ones that have come down to the present are ~150-200 years later, not 100. think around the time of Abu Ja'afar al-mansoor onwards. There were small informal collections prior to that, from various "companions"--notably abu hurayrah, who comes across to me as a pathological liar...

If that's the case there is a problem. Since most of the stories were kept orally there is no telling how much it got distorted over time. Hear say has a tendency to do that when it travels long distance, especially in the days of no email  or facebook. If everything was kept alive orally there is also another problem and that is which Hadiths are "authentic" and which ones are false or weak. See the problem here.

a problem more and more Muslims are (slowly) waking up to. Having said that, it isn't really the force of hearsay that distorted the hadiths most--it can be surprisingly accurate, just look at the poetry that survived: the number one agent was in fact Government policy (reference the sheer number of abu hurayrah Hadiths exalting kingship: all appear from the start of the Ummayyad era). second place would be shitty scholarship--a huge problem, judging from some of the more absurd examples.

BTW The one thing I found kinda interesting was the concept of the Jinn AKA Genie of the Lamp.

Jinn are just "spirits". they don't always come from lamps....

srsly though, they're supposed to be made of pure energy, or even from a parallel universe. weird stuff for non-Arabs, but hey, I grew up on this. 

EDIT: actually, IIRC the latter part is where they got their name. "Jinn" basically means "hidden or invisible ones", from the same root we get words for fetus (Janeen), heaven (or a walled garden) (jannah), and possibly junoon (madness--as in the brain goes into hiding...)

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I believe the Pre-Islamic Arabs also believed in these beings a millennium prior to Islam's arrival.

actually, the evidence is that is was for at least 4,000 prior to Islam; similar accounts of "demons" and "spirits" can be found in Mesopotamian mythology.

it's not that hard to find material: most of it is in Arabic (like the book of idols). religion before Islam would have resembled Canaanite and Nabatean religions, though more basal in form (God--"al-ilah" or later "Allah" being the number 1, and equivalent to El/Judeo-Christian God, rather than Ba'al). All other deities were directly subservient to al-ilah. he was said to have a wife, "al-ilahat" (lt. the Goddess), and at least three daughters. There were also some regional gods, like Wudd, Siwaa3, nasr, and to the North, Dhu sharaa (Latin: Dusares).

there were also multiple "Ka'abas", though by customary law only one can exist for a given deity--as one tribe discovered to its cost in the 4th century AD, when they set up a rival ka'abah for "al-ilah", outside Makkah. It ended when the Makkans came down and curb stomped the tribe, then slit the throat of a captive on that "hurum" (thereby defiling it).

[Skm1091]

Jinn are just "spirits". they don't always come from lamps....

srsly though, they're supposed to be made of pure energy, or even from a parallel universe. weird stuff for non-Arabs, but hey, I grew up on this. 

Well every culture has their weird little demons

For example the Japanese believe in the ONI, huge horned, club wielding demons

The ancient Persians believed in shadowy demons called the Daeva.

Koreans believe in Do Kae Bi. Think of a Korean version of the ONI almost. Not suprising since Koreans and Japanese have a lot in common with the han chinese.

In Hinduism there are a huge variety of demons and spirits.

So yeah arabs are not alone in that regard LOL