Chile argument

[Skm1091]

Many statist always point to brutal regime in Chile under Pinochet as a reason why capitalism sucks and socialism/communism is better

I have one rebuttal for this. Some of the countries which have strong and robust economies that were dictatorships had made transitions to a more democratic system. The countries which still clings to economic repression/central planning are STILL dictatorships.

An example of this is South Korea and North Korea.



South Korea during the 1960s - 1980s was also military dictatorship. I would know my parents lived in South Korea during this time period 

Now South Korea has made a transition to a more democratic government, and a fairly robust economy. (Not perfect by any means, there are LOTS of improvements needed). Same goes for Chile.

North Korea on the other hand is STILL a dictatorship with a shitty economy.

[Ibrahim90]

"se peepr's reprubric of career ees in facct the best rit cowntree in se worrd!"

sorry, I couldn't resist. In all seriousness though, just wait till the propaganda starts avalanching on you.

As to Pinochet? he isn't why capitalism sucks: just the opposite. compare Chile to the rest of the continent, and you'll see why. he is however the reason dictatorships suck--especially military ones.

[tnu]

Count the number of capitalist dictatorships. NOw count the number of Socialsit and communist dictatorships. There'syoru answer.

[Skm1091]

"se peepr's reprubric of career ees in facct the best rit cowntree in se worrd!"

sorry, I couldn't resist. In all seriousness though, just wait till the propaganda starts avalanching on you.

As to Pinochet? he isn't why capitalism sucks: just the opposite. compare Chile to the rest of the continent, and you'll see why. he is however the reason dictatorships suck--especially military ones.

Funny thing is North Korea during the 50s- mid 60s was actually a better place to live than the south. Back then South Korea was poorer than a lot of African and Latin American countries. That's the funny thing with socialism/communism is that in the beginning there is always a short sweet spot period of when it actually does work pretty well, but the problem is that it does not work in the long run. In fact it get's progressively worse over time and there is absolutely no way to get back to sweet spot period. You need capitalism for it to be sustainable in the long run.

Nowadays North Korea is an absolute shithole of a country, with human rights abuses that would make Pinochet's Chile seem like a choir boy gathering. I have had people come up to me and say that north korea was not really socialist/communist. Can anyone say No true Scotsman? If the government controlling 99.9% of the economy is not socialism/communism then I don't know what is.

The man credited for improving the south korean economy was this guy



President, Park Chung Hee

This man was South Korea's first dictatorial president. He is credited for doing a complete Meiji style economic overhaul and laying down foundation for the South Korean economy today. Some argue that socialism worked because he was the one investing in ships, technology, and exports etc. First I need to tell these people is that its easy to achieve growth when a countries at rock bottom, they should know that the South Korean economy was a still hell of a lot freer than the north and the south was trading with other nations. Although I have to admit If I was the president I would have tried a Hong Kong style economic system. It also does not change that fact he was absolute dick to his people.


 

[evensgrey]

Funny thing is North Korea during the 50s- mid 60s was actually a better place to live than the south. Back then South Korea was poorer than a lot of African and Latin American countries. That's the funny thing with socialism/communism is that in the beginning there is always a short sweet spot period of when it actually does work pretty well, but the problem is that it does not work in the long run. In fact it get's progressively worse over time and there is absolutely no way to get back to sweet spot period. You need capitalism for it to be sustainable in the long run.

Nowadays North Korea is an absolute shithole of a country, with human rights abuses that would make Pinochet's Chile seem like a choir boy gathering. I have had people come up to me and say that north korea was not really socialist/communist. Can anyone say No true Scotsman? If the government controlling 99.9% of the economy is not socialism/communism then I don't know what is.

North Korea also had most of the infrastructure and industry, giving it a bit of breathing room and putting the South at a serious disadvantage while it built itself up, and had great gobs of stuff being showered on it by Mao and Stalin during the war (at the expense of the people lumbered with living in China and the USSR, of course).

[Ibrahim90]

Funny thing is North Korea during the 50s- mid 60s was actually a better place to live than the south. Back then South Korea was poorer than a lot of African and Latin American countries.

one also has to remember that South Korea was where most of the fighting in the Korean war took place, and so suffered the most devastation. Pictures of Seoul from before and After the war show a shocking contrast--worse than even Berlin or your average war-ravaged city in the USSR.

Nowadays North Korea is an absolute shithole of a country, with human rights abuses that would make Pinochet's Chile seem like a choir boy gathering. I have had people come up to me and say that north korea was not really socialist/communist. Can anyone say No true Scotsman? If the government controlling 99.9% of the economy is not socialism/communism then I don't know what is.

with the worlds worst propaganda--that stuff was unreal. you should see the vice documentary: it's madness. (in fact that line I put is a direct imitation of a North Korean propagandist).

The man credited for improving the south korean economy was this guy



President, Park Chung Hee

This man was South Korea's first dictatorial president. He is credited for doing a complete Meiji style economic overhaul and laying down foundation for the South Korean economy today. Some argue that socialism worked because he was the one investing in ships, technology, and exports etc. First I need to tell these people is that its easy to achieve growth when a countries at rock bottom, they should know that the South Korean economy was a still hell of a lot freer than the north and the south was trading with other nations. Although I have to admit If I was the president I would have tried a Hong Kong style economic system. It also does not change that fact he was absolute dick to his people.

this guy reminds me of the pharaohs: all business belongs to him.

however, it isn't socialism strictu sensu: there is no collectivizing process present here of already present industries: simply a single man running what is in effect, a business, with him getting most of the profits and the people collecting the crumbs. it has greater parallels with feudalism, or forms of Bronz-age government, as found in Mycenae or in Egypt.

[Skm1091]

one also has to remember that South Korea was where most of the fighting in the Korean war took place, and so suffered the most devastation. Pictures of Seoul from before and After the war show a shocking contrast--worse than even Berlin or your average war-ravaged city in the USSR.

No kidding. Just take a look at these pics.

http://www.qsl.net/w/wd4ngb/17thpics6.htm

Now look at what Seoul is now.

with the worlds worst propaganda--that stuff was unreal. you should see the vice documentary: it's madness. (in fact that line I put is a direct imitation of a North Korean propagandist).

I saw the documentary. I wanted to reach through the monitor and strangle their fat bastard excuse of a ruler. If you think that's bad you should see this.

[yt]PvfiHmOFY78[/yt]

[evensgrey]

with the worlds worst propaganda--that stuff was unreal. you should see the vice documentary: it's madness. (in fact that line I put is a direct imitation of a North Korean propagandist).

Yes, they're rather bad at propaganda.  So bad at it, in fact, that they actually labeled a section of their official national web site as 'Propaganda'.  (Apparently, this is the most accurate translation of the term they would likely have wanted to translate as 'Information' if they weren't so incompetent at propaganda.  I understand they changed it after people started going there specifically to laugh at it.)

[Skm1091]

Yes, they're rather bad at propaganda.  So bad at it, in fact, that they actually labeled a section of their official national web site as 'Propaganda'.  (Apparently, this is the most accurate translation of the term they would likely have wanted to translate as 'Information' if they weren't so incompetent at propaganda.  I understand they changed it after people started going there specifically to laugh at it.)

[yt]vpe5Jmg0yH0[/yt]

you mean one of these?

When I saw this all I can say was.....MY EYES!!! THEY BURNS US!!!!!

[evensgrey]

[yt]vpe5Jmg0yH0[/yt]

you mean one of these?

When I saw this all I can say was.....MY EYES!!! THEY BURNS US!!!!!

And once again....Oy veh!  I didn't realize they were quite that incompetent.

It may relate to the fact that they've actually gotten the country sew up so tightly that there really isn't anything but their propaganda around, and the people apparently do (at least substantially) believe it, so they just don't get any better at it.