oh hai

[Anpanman]

I'm here because all my friends are social democrats and they think Sweden and Norway are like paradises on Earth.
They also think that WWII saved the American economy.
I want to ask you guys for potential sources that I would need in order to arm myself although I already know a few things like how in Sweden has a much lower income when compared to the USA. Also their cost of living is much higher so its a costly trade off for their so called "higher living standards".

I would love more contributions and tidbit information on Sweden and Norway partly because I'm lazy but honestly I think we can all benefit from this thread since so many liberals and social democrats keep bringing the issue up rather frequently.

I would also like suggestions for what sort of books on libertarianism I should pick up. I would also like books that oppose libertarianism so I get a good perspective.



Unrelated picture to make things more interesting.

[MrBogosity]

I'm here because all my friends are social democrats and they think Sweden and Norway are like paradises on Earth.
They also think that WWII saved the American economy.

Well here's a video I have covering World War II and why it wasn't any kind of recovery:

[yt]NFv_tJs6Jq8[/yt]

I want to ask you guys for potential sources that I would need in order to arm myself although I already know a few things like how in Sweden has a much lower income when compared to the USA. Also their cost of living is much higher so its a costly trade off for their so called "higher living standards".

Living standards are NOT higher in Sweden and Norway when you look at things like how many households have refrigerators, central heat and air, square feet of living space per occupant, etc. Our poor are at the same level as their middle class!

I would also like suggestions for what sort of books on libertarianism I should pick up.

Good ones:
Why Government Doesn't Work
The Great Libertarian Offer
Healing Our World (read the first edition free here)
Libertarianism in One Lesson
The Ethics of Liberty

I'd also recommend basic reading in economics:
Economics in One Lesson (free PDF)
I, Pencil (essay, free)
Whatever Happened to Penny Candy?
Free to Choose (and the TV series with the same name)

Welcome to the Forum!

[Anpanman]

Living standards are NOT higher in Sweden and Norway when you look at things like how many households have refrigerators, central heat and air, square feet of living space per occupant, etc. Our poor are at the same level as their middle class!

Took me a while to find the source but I found it for those of you who want to get a glimpse.

http://theuklibertarian.com/2010/06/22/the-myth-of-scandinavian-socialism/

Or more specifically

http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf

[MrBogosity]

Here's info on the metrics I mentioned: http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/07/what-is-poverty

[VectorM]

Living standards are NOT higher in Sweden and Norway when you look at things like how many households have refrigerators, central heat and air, square feet of living space per occupant, etc. Our poor are at the same level as their middle class!

But Shane, only shallow ultra-materialistic Americans care about refrigerators!

[MrBogosity]

But Shane, only shallow ultra-materialistic Americans care about refrigerators!

You jest, but this is the exact reaction that statists have had to this study:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/study-dismisses-poverty-but-try-telling-that-to-the-poor/2011/09/13/gIQANZSbQK_story.html

Not bad. Maybe you lost your job and lost your house. Public housing has a stove, fridge and window unit; you got to bring the TV and coffee pot. Who needs money?...So fret not, poor folks. To join, or rejoin, the middle class, apparently all you have to do is drop Comcast or Fios and turn off the thermostat.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/06/3649

Now Heritage is telling us that there are no poor people--very few, anyway, and then only for short periods of time--in the United States. The truth is that capitalism is failing millions of Americans. The less we think about the problem, the less we think it is a problem, the worse it will become...Then there's this sparkling gem of compassion: "Some poor families," admits Rector, "do experience a temporary food shortage, a condition touted as 'hunger' by activists. But even this condition is relatively rare: 89 percent of the poor report their families always have 'enough' food to eat, while only 2 percent say they 'often' do not have enough to eat." "Temporary food shortage." If that isn't hunger, what is?

Maybe the Washington Post is just lazy, but the Common Dreams people are outright liars--as is everyone else who focuses on things like DVD players and ignores (or, in the case of Common Dreams, quote-mines) parts of the study:

On average, the poor are well nourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children. In most cases, it is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than higher-income children consume, and their protein intake averages 100 percent above recommended levels. In fact, most poor children are super-nourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier than the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II.[24]

However, even though the poor, in general, have an ample food supply, some do suffer from temporary food shortages. For example, a poor household with an adequate long-term food supply might need temporarily to cut back meals, eat cheap food, or go without if cash and food stamps run out at the end of the month.

Still, government data show that most poor households do not suffer even from temporary food shortages. As Chart 7 shows, 92.5 percent of poor households assert that they always had “enough food to eat” during the previous four months, although 26 percent of these did not always have the foods that they would have preferred. Some 6 percent of poor households state that they “sometimes” did not have enough food, and 1.5 percent say they “often” did not have enough food.[25]

The bottom line is that, although a small portion of poor households report temporary food shortages, the overwhelming majority of poor households report that they consistently have enough food to eat.

So most of the statists would just ignore the fact that they even LOOKED at the issue of hunger. The worst of the worst, like the liars at Common Dreams, quote-mine it to make them seem to say, "okay, sure, they're hungry, but that doesn't count" (notice how this is apparently something that Rector "admits"), when they're really saying that the problem of hunger--which IS a real problem--is only experienced by a scant minority of those the government considers poor.

All of this enforces my conclusion that statists don't actually care one bit about the poor. They care only about their precious state, and they're willing to use the poor as pawns to gain power and money for their saints and preachers.

[Anpanman]

But Shane, only shallow ultra-materialistic Americans care about refrigerators!

Greetings comrade,

It is quite obvious that evil dirty capitalist bourgeoisie pigs only need such appliances to store organs that they bamboozled from the unsuspecting proletariat. I can attest this due to the fact that the exploitationists have not provided evidence to the contrary as they are experts at hiding bootlegged kidneys and other bodily tissues.
We are running out of time as these barbarians are feasting on aborted fetuses as we speak. We must spread this knowledge to the ignorant masses in order to start a new bolshevik revolution and put an end to this madness.

I wish you luck with all my sincerity.

[MrBogosity]

Two communists are waiting in a bread line. The first one complains about the long wait.

The second one says, "You should be happy for what our government does provide, comrade--in America, they don't even HAVE bread lines!"

[Ibrahim90]

But Shane, only shallow ultra-materialistic Americans care about refrigerators!

of course, that is until all their food rots away, or they get a mold or bacterial infection or some similar ailment. Of course, it would explain this dude's method of cooking:

[yt]j1KSaUEu_T4[/yt]

(apologies to all Swedes everywhere-this thread just lent itself)

[Gumba Masta]

I still can't figure out if mustachio is trying to break Professor X's head or kiss him.

[MrBogosity]

I went to a communist party once. They watered the booze, hid the girls, broke the toilet, and stole my wallet.

[Anpanman]

I went to a communist party once. They watered the booze, hid the girls, broke the toilet, and stole my wallet.

And then you wake up after you passed out drunk and find a condom stuck up your butt......................... not that it happened to me or anything................................ so about the broken toilet...........